Orders need a predefined Stop/Limit (FXCM...)?

[Lord Devil]

So FXCM supports an order where you can preset a stop and a limit. All my last platforms did support this too - I thought that was basic. Now I wonder why this is not possible with Ninjatrader Brokerage?

I know we have the ATM Strategies however as far as I know those are only locally and not server side. This means if your pc has troubles or you loose internet connectivity any order would be filled and left without any stop or limit - isn't that really a bad habit?

Surely you can preset e.g. a Sell Limit and a Buy Stop with the same amount... but you can never put them out at the same time - so there is always some unnecessary risk left.

Now I wonder what is the reason for this and why can't I set a predefined stop with any order I do. Isn't risk management the most important thing in trading or am I wrong here?

Thanks for your thoughts and comments,
LD

[NinjaTrader_JessicaP]

Hello, and thank you for your query.

Unless you have elected to perform a simulated stop, ATM generated orders are real orders. Orders in a state of working or accepted are on the servers, however, they do not support OCO serverside. If you are disconnected, you can contact your brokers' order desk immediately to manage your position.

I am including a link to the "Order Submission" section of the help guide. In addition to Simulated Stops, I believe you may also be interested in our OCO (One-cancels-the-other) functionality. Please carefully review both these sections.

http://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt7/?submitting_orders4.htm

I am also supplying a link other forums users have found helpful, which details what happens when orders are accepted or in working state.

http://ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=5349

[Lord Devil]

Hello, well thanks for the info but if I did not miss something this has nothing to do with OCO orders (I know how they work).

What I mean is if I enter an order with an ATM stop loss... then this will be placed as a normal order on the server (no stop loss!)! Once the order is filled, Ninjatrader will place an OCO for the limit and stop... but what if I leave my computer alone BEFORE the order gets filled and e.g. it crashes... then once the order is filled there would be NO stop loss and no limit - taking me at high risk that I could never do this. Not thinking of fast moving markets or power outage etc.

That's why I don't understand why I can't set a simple order with an already applied stop loss server side. Since FXCM, cTrader etc. supports it and my previous brokers did too - I just wonder why this doesn't work with Ninjatrader and why there is such a limitation? Or maybe I get something wrong

Thanks again for clarification.

[NinjaTrader_JessicaP]

When you say,

What I mean is if I enter an order with an ATM stop loss... then this will be placed as a normal order on the server (no stop loss!)!

As per the second link I provided, this is entirely broker dependent. With some brokers, your stop loss will indeed be a real stop loss order on the server.

For CQG for instance, the forums post has this :

Orders in a state "Accepted" or "Working" are at the exchange. If the exchange does not support a specific order type, the order will be active on the CQG servers.

Most exchanges accept stop market orders (what a stop loss order typically is).

The reason OCO was mentioned, is that even though both your bracket orders can exist on some servers, if your stop market order was triggered while your computer was crashed, your matching limit order would not be canceled (although see http://ninjatrader.com/ConnectionGui...nnection-Guide for CQG specifically, this is broker dependent as well)

[Lord Devil]

Maybe its my bad english so sorry for the misunderstandings... I see the list there and FXCM says:
"Orders in a state "Accepted" or "Working" are on FXCM servers.

But when adding an order with a ATM (for stop loss and limit), I can see this order as Working in the order list. But even though it is listed as working - there is no stop loss and no limit assigned (I checked the order at FXCM's trading station 2). I guess it will only be applied once the order is filled with 2 additional orders (for stop and limit) - but those then need the running ninjatrader application?

However since FXCM supports also stop and limits with their initial order and they should be using the same API as ninjatrader, I wonder why ninjatrader does not support this?

Hope you understand my problem this time

Kind regards,
LD

[NinjaTrader_JessicaP]

Hello Lord Devil,

I believe I understand a little more clearly. While you are protected both before and after the initial order is filled, we do not have an order type that submits both the entry and protective orders at the same time, as an atomic operation. I will request this feature be added to NinjaTrader. I will update this thread at a later time with a feature request ID.

Whether NinjaTrader has this feature or not, it is always a good idea to contact your broker in the event of a program crash.

Regarding FXCM, I would like to draw your attention to part of the disclaimer in the FXCM Connection guide

Using the FXCM account in NinjaTrader and FXCM’s Trading Station at the same time can cause oddities in both as they share the same API connection.

[Lord Devil]

Just think of it this way: You create your order with a ATM strategy. Then you leave your computer alone... once you come back, you found out that your pc crashed or whatever... however your order was still on the server... meanwhile it got even filled... but nothing set any stop or limit... so you your account maybe ruined by now...

That's why I don't understand (especially since FXCM is your brokerage and they do support a stop and limit on any order like most other brokers do too), why Ninjatrader doesn't support this yet. Am I the only one who is asking for this... hmmm

But thanks for adding it as a feature request.

Kind regards,
LD

[laredo787]

ATM orders are on globex?

If I may jump into this;what do we need to know about the orders on our screens,standard ATM orders,a sopt loss order and a target order etc.

So these remain on globex once we see them on the chart trader display?
Is the target order cancelled when the stop loss order is activated?

Thank in advance.

[NinjaTrader_JessicaP]

Hello laredo787, and thank you for your question.

I am going to provide an excerpt from the Help Guide section on order entry states. As we can see, for every color code other than Yellow or Orange, the order has either been resolved or exists on the server.

Order State - Definition - Color code

Initialized - Order information validated on local PC - Yellow

PendingSubmit - Order submitted to the connectivity provider - Orange

Accepted - Order confirmation received by broker - Light blue

Working - Order confirmation received by exchange - Green

PendingChange - Order modification submitted to the connectivity provider - Orange

PendingCancel - Order cancellation submitted to the connectivity provider/exchange - Red

Cancelled - Order cancellation confirmed cancelled by exchange - Red

Rejected - Order rejected locally, by connectivity provider or exchange - Red

PartFilled - Order partially filled - Red

Filled - Order completely filled - Green

Because OCO is typically handled on the NinjaTrader side, NinjaTrader has to be running for target orders to cancel if stop loss orders are activated, or vice versa.

Please note that connection settings do vary provider by provider. This link,

http://ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=5349

should give you all the information you need to determine your order state.

[cjdsellers]

If I may, 'Lord Devil'.

You aren't the only one asking for atomic orders. This feature is 100% necessary from a risk control perspective, leaving automated strategies running overnight or unmonitored for hours for example.

Imagine trading with say Interactive Brokers using an automated strategy on the NinjaTrader platform. You have an account value of say $200,000. Your strategy buys 10 ES (intraday scalping risk size) and attempts to submit your opposing SellStopMarket order (as the stop-loss), but for ANY reason this fails.

You now have an exposure in the market with a notional value due to leverage of over A MILLION DOLLARS. One 'wrong' move by the market, some extreme event, a very large sell off, would see you ruined.

Granted that no sound risk manager would be operating an account that large on intraday risk with a Beta version platform, and without being thoroughly testing and hopefully baby-sat also! However, the above very realistic scenario represents the reason why myself, Lord Devil, and at least a handful of others have requested this feature and expressed concern at its absence.

Btw this was discussed here http://ninjatrader.com/support/forum...ad.php?t=13424
and here http://ninjatrader.com/support/forum...ad.php?t=84070

The atomic order feature is being tracked under id number SFT-1091.