NT8 Issues

[TyJack]

To whoever cares.

Opened up NT8v11 today and this is what I find happening to horizontal lines on the charts. The ONLY indicator on the charts is JIGSAW DOM.

http://screencast.com/t/JalrJIBre5

I'm no longer "participating" in the NT8 feedback process because of the go nowhere, end up nowhere process that it is after my last attempt to get things working with NT support which resulted in me having to find my own solution that worked anyway after being given the typical NT cookie cutter response of "wait till next update".

This is what I recorded happening. No idea why, how, nor do I really care anymore as I'm actively moving to a different platform for the majority of use so I can get a platform that actually works. Heaven forbid that a trading platform can ever actually be used for trading! Its fantastic that NT8 seemingly has incorporated the NT7 feature of needing to be reinstalled every 2 weeks to overcome the fatal flaws and corruptions that form in both platforms with use. It always was a major selling point for me, nothing better then having to constantly reinstall everything and rebuild workspaces from scratch instead of actually trading.

Don't bother asking me to go on the wild goose chase that is the "log and trace" files provided process as I'm deleting them as I type this.

[James108]

I agree that this "Beta test " seems to be going in circles. We are 15 months into it and still people are finding significant bugs.

[eDanny]

Also, NT8 is beta, do not use beta software to trade. Simple logic, NT7 still works for trading.

[sledge]

Opened up NT8v11 today and .

It's not exactly cool to report bugs/issues in previous beta release.

B12 has been out for almost 2 weeks now?

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Tyjack,

I appreciate your feedback and understand your frustration.

All the beta testers have been a tremendous help in making NinjaTrader 8 a better product. We can only improve the platform if we work together. All reproducible bugs are logged and fixes are listed in the release notes:

http://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/en-us/release_notes.htm

If we are going to work together on what you are experiencing, and report it to the Development Team, I will need to be able to reproduce the behavior. To learn more about the exact scenario in which this occurred, the log and trace diagnostic files will be required to move forward.

[TyJack]

Also, NT8 is beta, do not use beta software to trade. Simple logic, NT7 still works for trading.

Did you not read my original post fully? NT7 is a buggy freezing platform that requires it be uninstalled, deleted, reinstalled and everything be rebuilt every 2-4 weeks so that it can function without fatal bugs and errors building up in it.

If that's what YOU call "still works for trading", well, I wish you the best.

For me, its FAR from a ideal platform and very far from a "stable" release and even further from being a $1000 platform.

Also, I don't use NT8 to trade. In fact, I don't use NinjaTrader anything to trade because of how faulty all of them are and the repeated freezes that have happened while in live trades over the last 2 years. All the while being told by support that it was the internet connections fault, the computers fault, the data providers fault... Anything BUT the platform! After going down that rabbit hole for 9+ months, getting techs to fault check each and every item that NT support ASSURED me was the weak link and having those techs check it on REPEATED occasions and ALWAYS finding the same outcome that the weak link was NT7 itself. I was forced into using another platform altogether that I execute trades through as I needed to ensure the platform handling the trades was actually STABLE. Same data, same computer, same internet connection, same everything BUT different platform.... Always stable no matter what studies or amount of charts or instruments are thrown at it.

After repeatedly telling NT that I had techs independently test each "faulty" item they assure me was the problem, I was finally told to "just wait for NT8" as it would "fix all the issues".
Now NT8's been in beta for what, 12-15mths?
So, going on over 2 yrs in total now without a properly functional NT platform and you think that's "acceptable"?. Heaven forbid anyone actually makes a complaint about the state of affairs after 2 yrs. Its not like any of us actually rely on it to make a living using the platform to actually trade.

O, that's right, it works with the inbuilt indicators and studies only just like every other $2 mickey mouse platform. Yet somehow that results in a $1000 price tag.

NT7/8 is now a charting platform only and even as that its not able to keep up. I have repeatedly tried to work with NT support to find a functional way to get SOMETHING up and working to meet my needs. Have spent literally 100's of hours trialing and testing different setups, workspaces to fault find. ALWAYS getting the same answer at the end - "Wait till next release, its sure to be fixed then". Meanwhile, that's another 2-4 months of downtime with NO PLATFORM and most certainly NO GUARANTEE that anything will be fixed or working in the next "beta" release.

It's not exactly cool to report bugs/issues in previous beta release.

B12 has been out for almost 2 weeks now?

After spending the last round of "fault finding" lasting something like 40 odd days and being given no answer or direction at the end of it apart from the cookie cutter "Wait till next release", I finally snapped and went and found a outside the box way to make everything work. And it has, ever since then. Right up till today when the build up of whatever causes NT8 to bug out just like what afflicts NT7. Requiring that it be deleted, reinstalled, rebuilt, then it will work again for a few weeks.

I fully understand what your saying Sledge, I really do. However, after finally getting a workable solution that took me 3 weeks of my own research, trial and error to cobble something together that actually works in a very unorthodox way, I'm not jumping to NT8v12 until its actually proven to be a step in the right direction.

This is not a NT8v11 specific issue. Its a NT specific issue no matter the release or version. It persists through them all. Trying once again to fault find or address it in NT8v11 or v12 will do no better then the previous 10 v releases or all the NT7 releases that have been as well.

Tyjack,

I appreciate your feedback and understand your frustration.

All the beta testers have been a tremendous help in making NinjaTrader 8 a better product. We can only improve the platform if we work together. All reproducible bugs are logged and fixes are listed in the release notes:

http://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/en-us/release_notes.htm

If we are going to work together on what you are experiencing, and report it to the Development Team, I will need to be able to reproduce the behavior. To learn more about the exact scenario in which this occurred, the log and trace diagnostic files will be required to move forward.

With respect Patrick, there is no way you could possible understand my frustration without living through it coupled with all the personal pressures it has resulted in bringing about in my personal life. For me, I actually rely on being able to USE the platform. I NEED up time on the platform to be able to trade and make a living. Every minute of market time that is not happening is lost time and money. Its never ending cycle of failures and down time with no clear feedback, direction, solutions or end date.

What the screen shot is showing has NOTHING to do with the horizontal lines that are seen flashing on the screen. That's just the by-product of the systemic failure that builds up in NT8, just as it does in NT7. Its a underlying systemic fault somewhere at the core of both NT versions that it seems no one wants to acknowledge, see and certainly not actually address.

It rears its head time after time after time, it remains consistently in NT7 and ALL versions so far of NT8. Trying to band aid over it each time never actually fixes the underlying fault/s that are the root cause of these "gremlins" that build up in NT that are oft talked about that plague NinjaTrader no matter the version.


The blame game will continue just as there is always one thing that is always consistent in the equation. The log and trace files lead to the symptom, not the CAUSE. I've been down this path to many times to count. The SAME underlying issue persists no matter the band aid fix. That's what I keep trying to tell support but no one wants to actually listen. There is a deep underlying problem that persists consistently no matter what NT it is. Doing the same "fault finding" process each time but not actually addressing the elephant in the room will only always result in the same symptoms persisting throughout releases.


I've already "fixed" the problem, just as I have always "fixed" it in NT7 and NT8.





And for anyone interested, its all up and running again fine. Just had to delete, remove all the files/folder, reinstall, rebuild. Suddenly works once again. Just like getting NT7 to work again after it wigs out.

[bltdavid]

And for anyone interested, its all up and running again fine.

I read your entire post, all good points.

I would make an additional deeper point. Bear with me as I hash it out.

The NinjaTrader platform allows all third party products (indicators or strategies, closed source or open, free or paid) an extreme carte blanche facility to do lots of good and lots of damage. This freedom means bad actors can be extremely hard to track down.

Thus, my major complaint is deeper than yours: I wish there was a strict "approval process" that vendors could use to have their product approved (including their source code), examined and verified by NinjaTrader itself. This "stamp of approval" would be paid for by the vendors who want that association, the whole thing being conducted similar to how Apple zealously controls and certifies apps for iPhone users. Or, how Microsoft does their WHQL program.

The problem is, to my mind, that this strict "approval process" would require complete access to all the source code for the vendor's product. Only then could deep tests be run, problems areas inspected, gotcha's be looked out for, etc.

[Edit: Actually, I don't even know, do iPhone developers have to submit their source code to Apple, or just the final compiled product?]

And the problem with that is obvious: developers of trading tools zealously guard their source code. Indeed, it is secret and proprietary and very personal to them -- obviously so, since they're trying to sell it to us, and they're naturally concerned about competitors stealing it. But still, this is retail product, not a $100,000 hedge fund product.

Nonetheless, how lovely the NinjaTrader EcoSystem could be if serious street cred was given to those add-ons that did submit to such an approval process and did earn the highly coveted "seal of approval" from NinjaTrader engineering.

If somehow those add-ons that earned this extremely difficult seal of approval had a really good reputation, esp in the area of not being buggy or freezing the underlying platform, then the expectation is those add-ons would do better in the marketplace.

Eventually, as I envision in my dreams, vendors would actually voluntarily submit their source code (under strict NDA, of course) to NinjaTrader's "seal of approval" department. And they'd pay NinjaTrader to do this. Because the coveted seal meant quality, and more sales to customers.

So, my complaint is this: (Ray, are you listening?) NinjaTrader does not have a serious seal of approval department for third-party vendors. The Certified NinjaScript Consultant program strikes me as a marketing ploy to get SEO hits, since the main requirement seems to be to have a website that links back to NinjaTrader.

My point: I wish for something much tougher, with more teeth, that involves a systematic and methodical way to examine and certify a third-party product. Whether that process includes source code or not, there still needs to be one.

My theory is that you, TyJack, would be a much happier customer if all your tools and add-ons had passed this strict certification -- but such certification does not exist.

This lack of serious and deep certification for third-party products that get installed into the NinjaTrader platform, is, (I think) the foundation of the single largest failure in the business decision department with NinjaTrader product management.

Am I wrong?

Ray, you built NinjaTrader with openness and an eye towards an expandable EcoSystem from the get-go, yet you created little to no business opportunity for your vendors to promote their product as having earned an advanced high quality engineering "seal of approval" from you.

It's like you succeeded wonderfully in the engineering side of your third-party EcoSystem vision, but the business side of the EcoSystem opportunity is truly lacking. Your company is missing some valuable revenue from vendors who could benefit from an advanced certification from you. You've dropped the ball on finding a valuable way to promote third-party products CERTIFIED by you as well-integrated and well-behaved.

Instead, you're letting your customers do it for you, and TyJack and hundreds of other just like TyJack, are not happy. You've built a situation for yourself like Microsoft, remember how their earlier reputation used to suffer seriously from poorly written third-party device drivers? Not their fault, but who gets the blame? Microsoft. What did they do about it? WHQL.

That, my friends, is the real problem: lack of a high quality engineering seal of approval program for third party vendor products. A quality seal so coveted and valuable to vendors that they would pay for it willingly. A quality seal so coveted and valued by the customer base that those third-party products sold better than non-certified products.

NinjaTrader needs the equivalent of Microsoft's WHQL program for their third party software vendors. The fact that there is none, is IMHO a deep and serious business oversight, esp as NinjaTrader continues to mature with the upcoming NT8 flagship on the horizon.

[florida99]

TyJack
Sounds like you have pc issues that may need to be resolved. NT7 is not buggy and I, like many others trade with it daily and have been continuously for 6 years. Other than weekly backups and disk images, I perform no other maintenance or rebuilds on NT 7 and I know for a fact, many users don't have to either.
You should visit other forums, many names mentioned here and you'd see traders posting images of their NT setups and trades and custom indicators they've written, modified, fixed and posted. I belong to several other forums and no one complains about any of the things you mentioned here. The one thing that everyone does agree, NT8 is still in beta and probably not ready for prime time so use it at your own risk.
You say, "For me, I actually rely on being able to USE the platform. I NEED up time on the platform to be able to trade and make a living. Every minute of market time that is not happening is lost time and money." Then what are you doing wasting time in a beta. If that's your need and goal, to trade and be profitable, then I'd suggest clean out everything from your pc, load a clean version of NT 7, stop your complaining and get to work trading. NT 7 works fine, it's not buggy and does not accumulate problems as you suggest and does not have to be rebuilt periodically. The NT folks on here are professionals and not confrontational. If you are having to rebuild every two weeks, then you, are probably doing something that causes the problems or your pc or a custom indicator. That's what you should be looking for, not blaming these people. They didn't cause your NT7 problems. If you do have an issue all these NT support people are ready and willing to help. Yes, I had problems with 7 but I can't think of one that was not my own doing or not understanding something. Once it was explained or I got help, the issue was resolved. These folks are knowledgeable and more than patient and work during their off hours to provide answers that are not condescending.
This platform costs $1000 if you use it to autotrade. Otherwise it's free and there are many 'free' license users. It's misleading to say
"O, that's right, it works with the inbuilt indicators and studies only just like every other $2 mickey mouse platform. Yet somehow that results in a $1000 price tag."
No one is demanding that you buy it so to say, the pricetag is a $1,000 is just plain wrong.

I bought my NT7 license Mar 29, 2010. Daily trading for 6+ years Couldn't be happier and it is not buggy as you claim. Suggest you start with a clean build pc, don't mix NT 7 and 8 versions,use a separate test pc for the beta if you still want to test it and start trading. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time and blaming others.

[TyJack]

TyJack
Sounds like you have pc issues that may need to be resolved. NT7 is not buggy and I, like many others trade with it daily and have been continuously for 6 years. Other than weekly backups and disk images, I perform no other maintenance or rebuilds on NT 7 and I know for a fact, many users don't have to either.
You should visit other forums, many names mentioned here and you'd see traders posting images of their NT setups and trades and custom indicators they've written, modified, fixed and posted. I belong to several other forums and no one complains about any of the things you mentioned here. The one thing that everyone does agree, NT8 is still in beta and probably not ready for prime time so use it at your own risk.
You say, "For me, I actually rely on being able to USE the platform. I NEED up time on the platform to be able to trade and make a living. Every minute of market time that is not happening is lost time and money." Then what are you doing wasting time in a beta. If that's your need and goal, to trade and be profitable, then I'd suggest clean out everything from your pc, load a clean version of NT 7, stop your complaining and get to work trading. NT 7 works fine, it's not buggy and does not accumulate problems as you suggest and does not have to be rebuilt periodically. The NT folks on here are professionals and not confrontational. If you are having to rebuild every two weeks, then you, are probably doing something that causes the problems or your pc or a custom indicator. That's what you should be looking for, not blaming these people. They didn't cause your NT7 problems. If you do have an issue all these NT support people are ready and willing to help. Yes, I had problems with 7 but I can't think of one that was not my own doing or not understanding something. Once it was explained or I got help, the issue was resolved. These folks are knowledgeable and more than patient and work during their off hours to provide answers that are not condescending.
This platform costs $1000 if you use it to autotrade. Otherwise it's free and there are many 'free' license users. It's misleading to say
"O, that's right, it works with the inbuilt indicators and studies only just like every other $2 mickey mouse platform. Yet somehow that results in a $1000 price tag."
No one is demanding that you buy it so to say, the pricetag is a $1,000 is just plain wrong.

I bought my NT7 license Mar 29, 2010. Daily trading for 6+ years Couldn't be happier and it is not buggy as you claim. Suggest you start with a clean build pc, don't mix NT 7 and 8 versions,use a separate test pc for the beta if you still want to test it and start trading. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time and blaming others.

Apart from it being the EXACT thing that NT support told me was the "problems" way back in the beginning and I've actually tested each and every part that I was assured was the "cause". Every single idea you put forward (plus a LOT more) have been tried many many many times.

Every part has been tested by techs, a custom trading computer built and recheck on 4 separate occasions. Every single "solution" has been tried. Yet, the same underlying symptoms still pop up time after time after time.


This is the "merry go round" that leads to no actual solutions. A band aid approach.

To say that there are not many people with issues is straight up false. I've found a countless number in the same boat as myself over the last 2 yrs but most are stuck at the assurance that's its "your internet connection, your computer, your data" at fault so tend to stay silent until they see someone else voicing the same concerns. Its the great catch all that few will actually bother to get physically checked by professionals to find out for sure. I got techs to check every link in the chain, many times. Strange where they tend to find the bottle necks happening.


We will never agree because we have had 2 completely separate experiences. Its great that you haven't had major issues. That's not the case for everyone though. I've tried every suggestion that has been provided, I've worked extensively with support. After support themselves tried to address it, they were the ones who finally told me to "wait until NT8 as it would fix the issues" I was finding. So I waited 9 months quietly and patiently for NT8 to be released.

Yet the same symptoms persistently pop up no matter the setup.

When there is only 1 thing that remains the same throughout all of it, it can only point to that being the underlying cause, no matter how unlikely that may seem.

[florida99]

If you were my customer and you are not and I have no connection to Ninjatrader and I do not speak for them, but I would recommend you find another provider because this one isn't working out for you.

[TyJack]

That, my friends, is the real problem: lack of a high quality engineering seal of approval program for third party vendor products. A quality seal so coveted and valuable to vendors that they would pay for it willingly. A quality seal so coveted and valued by the customer base that those third-party products sold better than non-certified products.

NinjaTrader needs the equivalent of Microsoft's WHQL program for their third party software vendors. The fact that there is none, is IMHO a deep and serious business oversight, esp as NinjaTrader continues to mature with the upcoming NT8 flagship on the horizon.

This is spot on in regards to 3rd party providers. The universe of 3rd party providers is the major selling point that sets NT apart from the competition. This should be leveraged properly, instead of NT platform selling the ideal of all these 3rd party add-ons but when it really comes down to it there is nothing but a free-for-all with no assurances or support.

With a certified product, it would ensure those vendors and NT are on the same page instead of making changes suddenly and blind siding everyone. Creates a stronger customer base and brand for all parties. Others can still stay the same without the added benefits that come with being certified.

[bltdavid]

To say that there are not many people with issues is straight up false. I've found a countless number in the same boat as myself over the last 2 yrs but most are stuck at the assurance that's its "your internet connection, your computer, your data" at fault so tend to stay silent until they see someone else voicing the same concerns.

My guess of what you see happening is probably obvious from my previous post.

It's an add-on issue.

My theory is: on your system, you have installed/imported one or more things into your NinjaTrader platform, (whether free or paid, closed source or open, does not matter) that is causing the bad behavior.

Something else you're installing has one or more bugs. Or, this is also possible: something else you're installing does something advanced or unexpected which tickles a bug inside NinjaTrader.

Thus, I suspect one or more of these installed components/indicators, whether combined or used separately, whether it takes 2 hours, 2 days or 2 weeks to happen, somehow one (or more) of these third-party add-ons is causing or manifesting the bad behavior you see.

--Regarding NT7 Only--

Do your issues ever happen with a strict plain vanilla install using standard indicators?

I presume after you add your additional packages and desired third-party tools, is this when you start to see the bad behavior?

[TyJack]

--Regarding NT7 Only--

Do your issues ever happen with a strict plain vanilla install using standard indicators?

Completely clean computer install with completely clean NT7 install and I have watched it freeze solid as soon as volume trades heavy. No 3rd party indicators on the computer at all, 1 instrument with minimal charts using inbuilt indicators only and keeping those to a minimum on each chart. Tried with a laptop and custom trading desktop back when I used NT7 to trade with.

I'm not denying that 3rd party indicators are the cause of "most" issues. I've found plenty of errors and reported to devs.

But there is something deeper that persists that is separate from any 3rd party add on.

[bltdavid]

Completely clean computer install with completely clean NT7 install and I have watched it freeze solid as soon as volume trades heavy. No 3rd party indicators on the computer at all, 1 instrument with minimal charts using inbuilt indicators only and keeping those to a minimum on each chart. Tried with a laptop and custom trading desktop back when I used NT7 to trade with.

I'm not denying that 3rd party indicators are the cause of "most" issues. I've found plenty of errors and reported to devs.

But there is something deeper that persists that is separate from any 3rd party add on.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, TyJack.

Just reading your quote above -- your experience sounds close to impossible. What you are saying is simply not supposed to happen. Freezing ... geez, something very fundamental is incorrect or mis-configured.

I don't doubt you, that's not what I am saying, but still, the engineer in me cries for you, my friend.

[The software engineer side of me wishes you lived close by, sounds like a great challenge to understand and solve your issue. Sigh...]

Good luck to you, sir.

[florida99]

Can you list your hardware, all of it, including motherboard brand and model, memory, cpu monitor(s) and graphics card(s) of the problem pc. Or are you saying that NT7 froze on both a desktop as well as laptop?
Did you run a memory diagnostic?

Could you take a screen shot or recording of the clean install NT 7 chart that displays the freeze problem,
What instrument is on the chart you mention? Do all instruments cause the freeze?
Which indicators are on the charts and how many charts open and their time frames?
What time frame chart are you looking at Volume that freezes? Tick? Minute? Range? Renko? etc?

Are there any other programs running at the same time as NT7?
Are there third party indicators installed but not on the chart(s)
How did you remove the previous installed 3rd party indicators.
Did you make sure there is nothing left in the Remove NinjaScript Assembly?