Trading the chart

[lindsayf]

Hi
I am feeling my way through NT and have a few questions regarding trading from the chart, and my preferred way of doing so. I would appreciate any comment on any aspect of this that leaps out at anyone as a potential issue. Trading the ES I enter with a bracketted buy or sell (ATM) at market then manage the stop loss and profit target manually on the chart depending on price/indicator action. At present I am paper trading a single contract. Here are some questions:
If I hit 'close' is this the same as 'sell/buy market'?
When I hit buy market to enter a long position I will be filled at the ask price (+/- slippage) yes?
When I hit sell market to enter a short position I will be filled at bid price(+/- slippage) yes?

When a profit target or stop loss is hit. this is a limit order yes?..meaning that there shouldnt be slippage but there is a slight chance that they could be gapped over?

And another question that I think is important as I put a trading plan together and try to estimate expectancy, how much more slippage per trade should I expect trading with real money, than I experience paper trading? Should I factor in at least a tick per trade to account for slippage in the ES? I trade from Australia too, dont know if this induces a significant execution lag?

thanks for any comments
Lindsay

[NinjaTrader_VinceB]

HI Lindsay,

1) You will be filled at Market. More info here under 'Quick Buttons':

http://www.ninjatrader-support.com/HelpGuideV6/SubmittingOrders2.html

2) For a Stop Loss this is Stop Market or Stop Limit. You can decide this yourself by right clicking in Chart trader--> Chart trader Properties--> Use Stop Market for stop loss orders.

3) I think it's best to ask this to our users here on the forum as they are trading Live. They can tell you if they experience slippage as we don't trade Live ourselves.

[beyondMP]

Lindsay,

Be warned that the Stop Limit generated by an ATM strategy has the Stop side of your order at your price and the Limit side placed some distance(20 ticks I think) away from your price, in effect making the Stop Limit acting like a Market order and contributing to possible significant slippage in a fast moving market.
This is a major flaw in NT and supposedly it will be changed in the next major update(reported by Ray in another forum) but until then be warned....

[lindsayf]

Thanks for the tip. but...
I am not 100% clear on this...I understand a stop at market to mean that the order will go to market and get filled at best available price. ..this might mean slippage.... I lean to this over a limit order which could be jumped completely...that would be worse from my perspective...when my stop is hit I want out.

Likewise when my entry conditions are met, I also lean to market because i want in. Again a limit order might get left behind and then I have to decide whether to chase or not...this opens up the chance of missing a good move..this would be expensive, maybe more expensive than cumulative slippage?

Is my logic and terminology making sense here or am I not undertsnding NT order terminologies/functions correctly.

Happy to hear that I am on the wrong path..

anyone else??

thanks

[beyondMP]

You might not be on the wrong path. Your logic is correct as to the use for the use of market orders when paper trading. In real trading, you will find, you will almost always lose at least a tick on both entry and exit, sometimes significantly more.
Using market orders in the ES market when it is moving fast, such as is the case in the current conditions, will result often in fills many ticks away from where you want to get in. This makes the results you achieve paper trading useless as to what you will expect in the real world. Be cautioned, every paper trader that went live and blew out their account was convinced they had a winning strategy when the simulator was on.
An old time trader said it best,"Missed money is a whole lot better than lost money."

[lindsayf]

Thankyou!..that is the stuff I want to learn about!
I would love to hear more from traders who have done the transition from paper trades to the real thing!! Are there hardware/software strategies that improve execution speed/minimise slippage.?

Do you think then that the following is BS...I read it in a Q/A forum, forget where...to the effect that.." I have done 180 (real) return trips to the ES and rarely have I experienced even a tick slippage..."

many thanks

[beyondMP]

As long as you are patient, and using limit orders, I know it is entirely possible to get your price. I have used limit orders for exit and have never missed an exit....of course, I need to wait a few extra seconds for a fill but the market always came back and filled me.(This is why I have complained about the way NT ATM Strategies place stop limit orders, I know this is causing many traders losses).

Now, I can imagine that there are people who miss their exits using limit orders, as this has to do with how they are trading...for example trying to catch the "falling knife", etc... So, realize your method can effect this...as is often the case, there is rarely a simple answer.

[lindsayf]

thanks BeyondMP

[plungee]

slippage estimating

Lindsayf:

Are you papertrading or on a simulator? A simulator has no slippage because it doesn't send the orders to the broker. Everything is right on your computer.

However, if papertrading, the orders do get sent to your broker and register as a real buy/sell in a paper account. Therefore, any slippage should be the same as a cash account. Just check the slippage in the paper account.

This is one of my gripes with demo accounts, not realistic because they only trade on your machine, making the vendor look real good. But I guess that's what sales is all about.

Good luck!

[lindsayf]

Well, I am paper trading with live data from Zenfire. I hope what you say is correct!

Hopefully NT will post a response, in the meantime I will ask my live feed provider/broker.

regards
Lindsay

[NinjaTrader_VinceB]

Please take a look here for the behavior of the Sim account:

http://www.ninjatrader-support.com/HelpGuideV6/SimulatorOverview.html

Use the arrows in the upper right corner to scroll through the documentation.

In addition you can set up a delay in the Simulator tab of the Options menu to better simulate 'real' trading.

[Jugador]

Lindsay,

Be warned that the Stop Limit generated by an ATM strategy has the Stop side of your order at your price and the Limit side placed some distance(20 ticks I think) away from your price.

Hi...not sure if this is what your referring to, but maybe you need to turn this off?

[Mindset]

Confused

This implies that Eurex doesn't accept stop limit orders - is this correct?

[NinjaTrader_VinceB]

Hi,

Yes, you are correct in understanding.

[Mindset]

so is the dax future traded on the Eurex or the DTB?