MBTrading Forex made 14 false executions... $155 loss without authorizing any trades

[ATI user]

MBTrading rolls over forex at 5pm
at 5 PM I had 4 forex charts open with charttrader showing my MBTrading cash account number
GBPUSD
GBPCHF
USDCHF
EURUSD

I had made a few manual trades at 10AM and at 5pm I had 2 sell limit orders working in the GBPUSD chart...well above the market....no other working orders in any chart

my 4 strategy charts were running all day in sim101 only

at 4:58:28 PM I get an Alert dialog saying "Account xxxx is unavailable for trading...I tried to cancel the working orders and could not as 'account is unavailable'

I got another alert dialog saying rollover would take 5 minutes

at 5:22:00 PM I get an alert dialog saying "MBTrading: Forex: Rollover completed, trading resumed

the 2 sell limit order still appeared working in the GBPUSD chart...i.e no noticeable change at my end

then I notice Market Analyzer showed $155 loss that was not there before...so check Executions tab and is shows trades had been made...so I checked the Log

at 5:03:46 PM the Log shows 14 simultaneous executions...nothing to do with my sell limit orders ..see attached
GBPUSD 9 executions
GBPCHF 3 executions
USDCHF 2 executions
with the odd number of executions one would expect to still be in 2 positions...I am not

hoping to clear an obvious error, I disconnected MBTrading, closed/opened NT, reconnected MBTrading and the negative balance was still there....

1. how can trades take place when the limit order was not hit....and trade in 2 of 3 charts that had no working orders at all
2. how do I get my $155 credited back to my cash account?

[ATI user]

re 2. called trade desk at MBTrading....account balance is as it should be...so problem is at NT end

re 1. it would appear to be NT API for MB is not handling the downtime from 4:58 PM to 5:06 at MB

3. one advantage to trading forex is holding overnight without margin issues...how can I trade my strategy seamlessly from one session to the next??

4. how do I get Market Analyzer and Accounts tab to pick up the correct values? Accounts shows nothing for balance and MA shows error ...even after re-connect to MB

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello ATI user,

Can you please send me your entire log and trace files for yesterday. You can find log and trace files at the following locations.

Start Menu--> My Documents--> NinjaTrader 7--> Log--> log.20110321 for yesterday. (log.yyyymmdd for any other date)

Start Menu--> My Documents--> NinjaTrader 7--> Trace--> trace.20110321 for yesterday. (trace.yyyymmdd for any other date)

Please send them to support[at]ninjatrader[dot]com. Put 'Attn Jason' in the subject header and reference this forum thread.

Subsequently I will investigate what happened during roll over.

[ATI user]

files sent for yesterday and today

last night I thought all was good because NT accepted 2 sell limit orders above the market...caught some sleep...came back at 4:50 AM...market was above the 2 working orders...i.e. not filled

tried to cancel orders....got message 'can not be canceled....account not loaded'...closed NT...opened NT and reconnected to Kinetick and MBTrading....on reconnection NT filled the orders at a considerable loss...did not however fill with the selected atm which had a stop loss....instead it just filled the orders without any stop loss...i.e. uncovered

so....you can not rely on NT to trade unattended....then you can not cancel the orders...then you are filled at a loss uncovered....please explain how NT MB users are to trade forex without this kind of risk

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello ATI user,

Can you please my email response as per your initial issue.

When I check the 3/21 log file, the two sell limit orders received a 'Working' status. This indicates the orders reside on MBTrading server or the exchange.

http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=5349&highlight=order+reside

Unfortunately NinjaTrader does not have any effect on the execution of orders once they reside at your broker or exchange. Please check with your broker why these two orders did not execute.

The error message you received when you tried to cancel these orders are native errors, meaning these error messages come from your broker.

After you tried to cancel these orders, I do not see them reflected in your log file anymore.
When you restarted NinjaTrader, you hit 'Flatten Everything'. You had a position in the GBPUSD. NinjaTrader closed the GBPUSD position due to 'Flatten Everything'.

I do not see that you two sell orders executed once you got re-connected to MBTrading. Please contact MBTrading to check what happened to the two sell limit orders. I suspect they got cancelled, since I cannot find them in the log file anymore.

The two sell limit orders use the following ID's

1r2e80a:00vn
1r2e80a:00vp

With these ID's, MBTrading should be able to track down these orders for you.

[ATI user]

I am running MBT Navigator 11.6.0.0 and NT 7.0.1000.4.

1. re your reply:
"When I check the 3/21 log file, the two sell limit orders received a 'Working' status. This indicates the orders reside on MBTrading server or the exchange.
http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/f...t=order+reside"

this not correct...nor is the info in the link....at least as it relates to FOREX

I spoke at length with MBTrading support and they stated that 'working' orders in Ninjatrader are 'software based' and that MB does not receive an order to be filled until triggered within NT software. ...i.e. the order DOES NOT reside on MB servers.

so...somewhere along the line NT dropped the orders during the session between 7:15PM when they were placed and 4:22 AM when the market exceeded the first sell limit order

2. rollover should not have any affect from MB's end...because they only deal with orders to be filled....you can not trade during rollover however if you have open forex positions during rollover, then you are simply charged a rollover fee/interest...minimal...http://www.mbtrading.com/forexRolloverPremRates.aspx

so...NT is dropping the working orders during rollover and NT must have caused the 14 invalid executions

[ATI user]

following is a reply from MB to an email I sent them regarding the 14 false executions...

"Please see the screen shot below of actual executions on 3/21. I do not see any of the executions you mentioned below or show in your own screen shot, or anything resembling a $155 loss. Also I do show that you had a couple Limit orders to short GBP/USD that look like they were killed at rollover, but were not reanimated. Since Chart Trader or what other programs you are using are not MBT software, we cannot assist you with why it may be reporting false executions, etc."

[ATI user]

here is the problem re 'can not cancel trade...account not loaded'....just watched it happen

1. open NT, connect Kinetick, connect MBTrading
2. at 8:41:52 PM placed sell limit order above mkt...NT confirmed working
3. at 8:43:02 MBTrading : connection lost (due to internet I assume)...disconnected from order server
4. at 8:43:25 MBTrading : can not cancel trade....connection unavailable
5. at 8:44:12 MBTrading : connection restored with MB order server
6. at 8:47:56 MBTrading : can't be canceled now.....dialog in chart 'account not loaded'
7. at 8:48:23 I disconnected to try to regain control...had to restart NT (required by MBTrading)
8. at 8:50:13 MBTrading : connecting..."rollover complete...trading resumed"
9. at 8:50:14 MBTrading : connected
10. at 8:50:15 Position short without a trailing stop per atm

so...what happened on both occasions is connection was lost with MB (rollover first time...internet second time) and on auto re-connect the MB account is 'not added' and therefore user control is lost...then on manual restart and re-connect an order without a stop appears....I assume the order comes from NT trying to recover the trade that was lost on disconnect...however it does this without the use of the atm...i.e. no stop....just takes an uncovered position at any price

surely this is not expected behavior since it makes it impossible to have orders outstanding with MB at any time due to risk of disconnect and subsequent forced and uncovered positions.

sent the log to your attention

[NinjaTrader_Brett]

Hello,

Thanks for your patience. Wanted to verify this with MBT.

I spoke at length with MBTrading support and they stated that 'working' orders in Ninjatrader are 'software based' and that MB does not receive an order to be filled until triggered within NT software. ...i.e. the order DOES NOT reside on MB servers.

This is not true. Orders are located on MBT servers.Not sure where you got this information.

A stop order and limit order would both be on MBT's servers. The OCO or one cancels the other when one of those hits are locally simulated.

Therefor if you are to be disconnected the stop and targets will still be active. However the OCO functionality would not be active. If you lose connection with any provider with an ATM Strategy the ATM Strategy will no longer function. Therefor if you lose connection you would need to manually cancell the stoploss or profit target if one got filled.

To I have this correct your saying that when you disconnect and reconnect the stop loss and profit target are no longer active?

[ATI user]

reallty getting tired of this

1. "...Not sure where you got this information" ?
As stated, I got it from MB support who put me on hold and checked with other MB support. Clearly it depends on who you talk to. My guy was adamant. Who did you talk to? At least 2 MB support person believe the opposite.

2. "If you lose connection with any provider with an ATM Strategy the ATM Strategy will no longer function. "
I did not lose data feed, I lost connection with the broker. Over the lasts 5 years I have traded futures with Zen-Fire data and either AMP or Mirus broker. I have never had this problem during that 5 years...i.e. if I have a working order and connection is lost, when connection is auto-restored by NT the account and the atm working order work fine. If it did not I would have reported this issue 5 years ago. This is a problem exclusive to NT automatically reconnecting to MBTrading. Not the same at all.

3. "To I have this correct your saying that when you disconnect and reconnect the stop loss and profit target are no longer active? "
NO. I am not doing any disconnect/reconnect until after NT auto-reconnects which is causing the problem I can not make it any clearer than in my post above. Please read each step and read the Log I sent to Jason. The problem is that ANY interruption of connection with MBTrading results in no access at all to any orders because "THE ACCOUNT IS NOT LOADED" ...which I take to mean on reconnect by NT, NT is not reactivating/reloading the MB account and therefore the status of the working orders. This is not the case with other brokers. Perhaps it could be the MB API do you think?

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

Hello ATI user,

I re-investigated your files once more. The reason why the two sell orders are not reflected in your log file after you got reconnected at 4:54:19 AM on 3/22/2011 is because I believe they executed while NinjaTrader was closed.

When you got connected at 4:54 AM, it lists the following position.

3/22/2011 4:54:20 AM|1|64|Instrument='$GBPUSD' Account='xxxxxxx' Avg price=1.633605 Quantity=2,000 Market position=Short Operation=Insert Currency=UsDollar

The position must have been a result from your 2 sell orders. This clarifies why both orders were filled and why no ATM orders were submitted.

OCO functionality resides in NinjaTrader, so NinjaTrader needs to be running and connected to cancel the OCO order when the other OCO order fills. NinjaTrader needs to be running and connected to submit ATM orders as well.

I suspect OCO functionality causes the confusion with the location of orders as well. All orders reside on MBTrading servers, however OCO functionality does not. MBTrading uses a different order type for OCO orders called TTO. It submits the stop loss and profit as one order. MBTrading informs that all orders are on their server except the OCO order type. The OCO order type refers to the NinjaTrader OCO functionality.

[ATI user]

Jason

1. This would explain why the fills take place without any stop...i.e. atm is not activate after MB disconnect
So....to avoid trading this issue entirely....NT users should never place ATM orders....instead only place a Sell Limit order and a Stop Loss order ?? Please explain in detail as ATMs clearly are not acceptable.

2. Further, is the ATM order being in place when connection is lost causing NT to essentially 'lock up' with respect to the MB account? i.e. it is impossible to recover control of any orders or the account without restarting NT and reconnecting to MB

[NinjaTrader_Jason]

1. The ATM orders did not trigger because the sell entry orders executed while NinjaTrader was closed. The log files do not reflect the execution of the two sell orders, so they must have been executed while NinjaTrader was closed.

You can submit ATM orders, however you will need to ensure NinjaTrader is running and connected when the entry order is filled.

2. Your ATM orders are submitted when your entry order is filled. If the entry order is filled while you lost connection, no ATM orders are submitted.

If you are in a naked position you can manually add OCO orders to protect it. If you have an open position without a strategy, you need to add a limit and stop order to protect the position.

• Set strategy to<none>
• Right click in the DOM and enable OCO order
• Then place a limit order where you want to exit at a profit
• Then place a stop order where you want to exit at a loss
• Then right click again and disable OCO order

[ATI user]

this from MB
"Your inquiry below is a complicated one. To be fair to NinjaTrader, yes my tech department is telling me that NT orders should be held on our servers. In our own defense, however, if you are using a trading robot that is reporting false executions back to your system, perhaps that is affecting our own system and causing it not to reanimate your orders. I'm sorry I am unable to assist you with, or further comment on, how NinjaTrader's automated trading programs work."

do you agree with his comment and my assumption that the atm issue is causing the 'account not loaded' issue wherein you completely lose control of the account

re your comment
"You can submit ATM orders, however you will need to ensure NinjaTrader is running and connected when the entry order is filled. "
this is the problem...you can not leave an ATM running and risk a disconnect (such as overnight while you are sleeping)
so..again...please specify which orders with MB can be left unattended to ensure a fill and a stop loss

thanks.

[ATI user]

definitely a problem with recovering from MB disconnects.

just had another disconnect...MB reconnected and now I can not change a stop loss order

see attached msg

..edit..

then tried to place a buy limit order below the market to see if account was working a got the other 2 messages

...edit...

only way to restore MB account and charttrader access is to restart NT and reconnect to MB...auto re-connect to MB does not work in NT as it does with AMP and Mirus

this must be a bug that needs to be addressed asap....surely NT does not expect all forex traders using MB to have to sit in front of the screen constantly in case there is a disconnect and then when one occurs have to manually restart NT to recover control. This more than a limitation like the atm quantity issue...it renders the NT MB combo totally unreliable

Question: if this issue also likely due to my having made the trade from charttrader using an atm? The errors were different and this disconnect there was a position and a stop loss instead of a stop order. For futures I mainly auto-trade using AtmStrategyCreate...so I have not used the DOM in 5 years. However, I will test this by trading forex only from the DOM and wait for the next MB disconnect....which has happened everyday for the last 3 days.

At this point of course it looks like auto-trading forex at MB is out of the question. Possibly might work with Enter Long, Enter Short. Has anyone tested this with MB?