Trade Ideas 4 vs. Ninja Trader 8

[lmatiukas]

hey there,

I'm sharing my thoughts on the two softwares, and how their differences matter, and I am curious to see if anyone else has similar experiences.

Programming: I've got a few years with Java, and am learning C# now, and I'm a big fan that I can actually write relevant code from scratch, and make easy adjustments and tweaks. For those reasons I've been excited about the upgrades to Ninja Trader in the last iteration of the software - 8 - over it's previous versions. Trade Ideas 4 is essentially a graphical user interface, where I see code writing as much much easier, but not as in depth and not as accurate. Some of the nuances of a more accurate algorithm may be lost, but likely not enough of a difference where one system would be better over the other.

GUI VS DOS: I've tried Trade Ideas 3 previously, and was interested, and with 4th version of the software it seems they're equivalent to Ninja Trader 8, in the same way that they're the Windows 95, and Ninja Trader 8 is the DOS version back in the idea. Rather than programmable from scratch, everything is much more intuitive, as it is a GUI based system. Here I would have to program, that when a certain couple closes above the lower band of a BB, along with certain support crosses, I buy. I have no issues in writing the code, as it can be made more specific. But it seems that there the code is written for you, and all I have to do is select 1) Close above Bollinger Band 2) Cross above Daily Support1.

EXECUTION: The biggest difference, however, is the fact that TI4 runs the entire stock market, without any lag, since it's not run on YOUR computer, you just receive the results immediately. The trade off, it's not an automated service, and you would have to enter any trade. However, I find that I wouldn't trust NJ8 to run by itself anyways, and would rather use provided entries and exits as a signal as well.
With NJ8 there is no easy way, if at all possible, to pull all of the stock market information. I would have to physically type out all 14,000 - 500 SP500 - 100 Nasdaq (that's over 13,500 TICKERS). Then I would have to download DAILY the data from somewhere that would even allow that many connections - not sure it's possible - if I wanted to run the strategy on all those. Additionally, it seems unless I have a super computer, the system would hang almost 100% of the time, because even running a simple strategy on SP500, NJ8 crashes or gets kicked almost all the time.

Taking automation out of the equation, seems like TI4 does everything the same, but with 0 need for programming knowledge, no chance of crashing, and immediate calculation speed. In other words, I'm able to run the same strategies on there, without any issues for ALL PUBLICLY traded stocks, and simply set up alerts where I can validate the few trades I'd get during the day.

Any others seeing the same thing, or do you KNOW how to load 14K stocks on NJ8, what connection to use to not get disconnected, and have 1000GB RAM to be able to run the program without crashing?

[koganam]

hey there,

I'm sharing my thoughts on the two softwares, and how their differences matter, and I am curious to see if anyone else has similar experiences.

Programming: I've got a few years with Java, and am learning C# now, and I'm a big fan that I can actually write relevant code from scratch, and make easy adjustments and tweaks. For those reasons I've been excited about the upgrades to Ninja Trader in the last iteration of the software - 8 - over it's previous versions. Trade Ideas 4 is essentially a graphical user interface, where I see code writing as much much easier, but not as in depth and not as accurate. Some of the nuances of a more accurate algorithm may be lost, but likely not enough of a difference where one system would be better over the other.

GUI VS DOS: I've tried Trade Ideas 3 previously, and was interested, and with 4th version of the software it seems they're equivalent to Ninja Trader 8, in the same way that they're the Windows 95, and Ninja Trader 8 is the DOS version back in the idea. Rather than programmable from scratch, everything is much more intuitive, as it is a GUI based system. Here I would have to program, that when a certain couple closes above the lower band of a BB, along with certain support crosses, I buy. I have no issues in writing the code, as it can be made more specific. But it seems that there the code is written for you, and all I have to do is select 1) Close above Bollinger Band 2) Cross above Daily Support1.

EXECUTION: The biggest difference, however, is the fact that TI4 runs the entire stock market, without any lag, since it's not run on YOUR computer, you just receive the results immediately. The trade off, it's not an automated service, and you would have to enter any trade. However, I find that I wouldn't trust NJ8 to run by itself anyways, and would rather use provided entries and exits as a signal as well.
With NJ8 there is no easy way, if at all possible, to pull all of the stock market information. I would have to physically type out all 14,000 - 500 SP500 - 100 Nasdaq (that's over 13,500 TICKERS). Then I would have to download DAILY the data from somewhere that would even allow that many connections - not sure it's possible - if I wanted to run the strategy on all those. Additionally, it seems unless I have a super computer, the system would hang almost 100% of the time, because even running a simple strategy on SP500, NJ8 crashes or gets kicked almost all the time.

Taking automation out of the equation, seems like TI4 does everything the same, but with 0 need for programming knowledge, no chance of crashing, and immediate calculation speed. In other words, I'm able to run the same strategies on there, without any issues for ALL PUBLICLY traded stocks, and simply set up alerts where I can validate the few trades I'd get during the day.

Any others seeing the same thing, or do you KNOW how to load 14K stocks on NJ8, what connection to use to not get disconnected, and have 1000GB RAM to be able to run the program without crashing?

And that is worth $188 per month to you? Or am I looking at a different product?

[lmatiukas]

Sharing my opinion, and was hoping for a solid response backing NT8; especially the ability to scan more than a couple stocks. Since you did respond, are you able to run the lot of them? I have a solid backtest, with SP500/NASDAQ/DOW getting nearly 80% profitable ratio. But I can't even front test it for those stocks - it's breaking.

TI4 was $999 lifetime until a month ago, and is still $15 through Scottrade a month, so it's cheap. I just would love to a) be able to write my own scripts, to improve on what they're giving there, even though they guarantee a self improving system, and 60%+ profitability, b) a system where if I DO spend all this time coding, can do some automation, so it's a real algorithm, and not another elaborate scanner.

Have you had more success with NT8 than I have?

Thanks

[koganam]

Sharing my opinion, and was hoping for a solid response backing NT8; especially the ability to scan more than a couple stocks. Since you did respond, are you able to run the lot of them? I have a solid backtest, with SP500/NASDAQ/DOW getting nearly 80% profitable ratio. But I can't even front test it for those stocks - it's breaking.

TI4 was $999 lifetime until a month ago, and is still $15 through Scottrade a month, so it's cheap. I just would love to a) be able to write my own scripts, to improve on what they're giving there, even though they guarantee a self improving system, and 60%+ profitability, b) a system where if I DO spend all this time coding, can do some automation, so it's a real algorithm, and not another elaborate scanner.

Have you had more success with NT8 than I have?

Thanks

No. I have had plenty of failures with NT8. But NT8 is a beta. We cannot compare a beta to a shipping product. On the other hand, I have plenty of success with NT7.

Then again I do not trade stocks, and rarely, if ever, trade more than 3 instruments at a time, so I am not really qualified to give a sensible opinion.

I swing trade options, and can scan and process the entire market of stocks with penny-increment options to find those that fit the criteria, which are so strict that I get maybe 1 trade a week. It is just a matter of writing the code into an indicator and then using it in the Market Analyzer.

[koganam]

With NJ8 there is no easy way, if at all possible, to pull all of the stock market information. I would have to physically type out all 14,000 - 500 SP500 - 100 Nasdaq (that's over 13,500 TICKERS). Then I would have to download DAILY the data from somewhere that would even allow that many connections - not sure it's possible - if I wanted to run the strategy on all those. Additionally, it seems unless I have a super computer, the system would hang almost 100% of the time, because even running a simple strategy on SP500, NJ8 crashes or gets kicked almost all the time.

Emphasis mine.
Not true. You can import a list of stocks into NT8. Actually, that is how I imported the list of "stocks with penny-increment options" that I speak about in another post, into NT7. Exported the list as text from TOS, then imported it into NT7. You can import a list into NT8 too.

In any case, I doubt that you would have enough margin to run any strategy on 14k+ symbols. If you did, I am sure that you would be talking with a quant house, or employing some Ph.D's to handle your coding.

If you are talking about scanning, that you can do; though again, IMHO, trying to trade off 14k symbols seems rather ambitious and a bit unfocused? Of course, given that I trade very few instruments, I will admit that I am biased towards having a small trading universe. (Options are a different kettle of fish, but even there, I have culled the list to the smaller universe of "stocks with penny-increment options").

But those are philosophical matters. In practical matters, NT can handle the instruments in the Market Analyzer, and no, I do not have a super computer.

[lmatiukas]

hey there,

See i APPRECIATE you commenting, because you're kind of letting me know that NT7 simply has capabilities that NT8 does not, and that NT7 maybe does not crash running a few hundred stocks.

I've attached a screenshot to show you what I mean. in NT8B11 Market Analyzer always remains blank, and it's just a watch list in essence either way, even if it were working. And instrument list only allows SINGLE stock entry - so to get Russ2000 would take me 2000 excruciating entries one at a time. Once entered, there is no AUTO way to make sure data is uploaded, it needs to be downloaded, and accessed daily for it to work.

I don't think there's a need for a quant house, as long as there's a program like NT that would work. In a regular trading example, I may have a scanner narrow it down to 20 odd stocks for me, and then I can make a decision on what I like about it technically and fundamentally. I simply was excited about the possibility of using this as an advanced scanner. Not only to identify stocks with certain attributes, but even narrow down those 20, and suggest entries mathematically, rather than myself trying to evaluate all of the options in real time. Run 14K stocks, check for 3x usual volume, check for trend, match the trend with moving average crosses, match that with standard deviation anomalies, suggest entries off of supports and bollinger bands. I could surely do that myself, after scanning for such events, but this just seems like a faster way to do it.

I'll give it a shot with NT7, and see if I can get it not to crash trying to run SP500 strategies. As you can see from my screenshot, it is holding up to NASDAQ 100 without shutting down. The only bummer about that, the Sim account doesn't adjust, even though on the output screen I get executions, so I still can't process a walk forward approach.

Are you using NT7 then?

[sledge]

hey there,

See i APPRECIATE you commenting, because you're kind of letting me know that NT7 simply has capabilities that NT8 does not, and that NT7 maybe does not crash running a few hundred stocks.

I've attached a screenshot to show you what I mean. in NT8B11 Market Analyzer always remains blank, and it's just a watch list in essence either way, even if it were working. And instrument list only allows SINGLE stock entry - so to get Russ2000 would take me 2000 excruciating entries one at a time. Once entered, there is no AUTO way to make sure data is uploaded, it needs to be downloaded, and accessed daily for it to work.

NT8 is in User Beta Testing. If you found a bug or something that is crashing, please report it in the NT8 Section for Issues and Bug Reports.

Over here: http://ninjatrader.com/support/forum...splay.php?f=60

If they can reproduce it, they'll log it and try to fix it asap.

[koganam]

hey there,

See i APPRECIATE you commenting, because you're kind of letting me know that NT7 simply has capabilities that NT8 does not, and that NT7 maybe does not crash running a few hundred stocks.

I've attached a screenshot to show you what I mean. in NT8B11 Market Analyzer always remains blank, and it's just a watch list in essence either way, even if it were working. And instrument list only allows SINGLE stock entry - so to get Russ2000 would take me 2000 excruciating entries one at a time. Once entered, there is no AUTO way to make sure data is uploaded, it needs to be downloaded, and accessed daily for it to work.

I don't think there's a need for a quant house, as long as there's a program like NT that would work. In a regular trading example, I may have a scanner narrow it down to 20 odd stocks for me, and then I can make a decision on what I like about it technically and fundamentally. I simply was excited about the possibility of using this as an advanced scanner. Not only to identify stocks with certain attributes, but even narrow down those 20, and suggest entries mathematically, rather than myself trying to evaluate all of the options in real time. Run 14K stocks, check for 3x usual volume, check for trend, match the trend with moving average crosses, match that with standard deviation anomalies, suggest entries off of supports and bollinger bands. I could surely do that myself, after scanning for such events, but this just seems like a faster way to do it.

I'll give it a shot with NT7, and see if I can get it not to crash trying to run SP500 strategies. As you can see from my screenshot, it is holding up to NASDAQ 100 without shutting down. The only bummer about that, the Sim account doesn't adjust, even though on the output screen I get executions, so I still can't process a walk forward approach.

Are you using NT7 then?

I do not see a screenshot.

Yes, I am using NT7, while I test NT8. I trade in a discretionary manner on only one chart: everything else are autotraders using different methods.

[lmatiukas]

how did the .jpg not attached.

Take a look you'll see what I mean. Will give a shot with NT7, just not sure how much I want to delve into that, considering I'm good Java and learning C# programmer.

Market analyzer in NT8B11 is all blanks, and need to insert 1 symbol at a time, cannot import lists of stocks. Also showing a successfully running strategy that is synced - for example right now I have NASDAQ 100 and it hasn't crashed! In backrests I got over 80% success rate. However that doesn't link to Sim account that it's sim trading on.So my only show of checking success rate is clicking on every individual stock ticker to see what it got.

Will get into NT7 to see the differences.

[koganam]

Take a look you'll see what I mean. Will give a shot with NT7, just not sure how much I want to delve into that, considering I'm good Java and learning C# programmer.

Market analyzer in NT8B11 is all blanks, and need to insert 1 symbol at a time, cannot import lists of stocks. Also showing a successfully running strategy that is synced - for example right now I have NASDAQ 100 and it hasn't crashed! In backrests I got over 80% success rate. However that doesn't link to Sim account that it's sim trading on.So my only show of checking success rate is clicking on every individual stock ticker to see what it got.

Will get into NT7 to see the differences.

As you continue your journey on NT, you will find that things are much better integrated than you think now, but you will still have to learn it. After all it is a pretty big platform now.

The picture you showed is not where you import an instrument list. To import a list, you use the sub-item on the "Utilities menu" in NT7; in NT8, you import a list directly from the "Import" menu, which, arguably, is a more logical layout. (see picture).

You can then load that list into the Market Analyzer. The Market Analyzer is something of a super-scanner, but you still have to write the conditions that you want to meet. If that condition is not handled natively in the Market Analyzer (few are), you write an indicator whose Plot gives you the values to key off of in the Market Analyzer.

You would be best off if you RTFreeManual (the entire thing), because it is an almost complete treatise on how to use all parts of NinjaTrader, and even has NT hands-on programming tutorials.

[lmatiukas]

hey there,

thanks for your response. I've tried out the differences a bit too. Right off the top, I can see that Level II quotes do not work for some smaller market cap companies in NT8B11, while they work in NT7 - I'm certain you already know about that.

Also, the Charting of last prices, and thus Time and Sales are quite different, and comparing it to my ThinkOrSwim, it looks like NT8B11 is much closer to reality - almost the same. I suppose that has to do with the way data is collected and relayed in NT8B11.

Also, with NT7 there are no hang up/crash issues running a strategy, and I can execute whatever list I'd like, and able to see changes overall and day by day.

I'm happy to report that NT8B11 oddly hasn't crashed this whole week, though I have to be super patient in letting it do one task at a time, and not click around with my mouse too much. CPU usage is less than 20%, and ram goes to only couple GB also, or also about 20% usage.

Also you are correct in import list area, and thank you for pointing that out.

Having said all that, I'm excited seeing that NT8B11 will be more accurate in charting and reporting prices; cannot wait for Level II to work across the board, and have it stop crashing for no reason, while not even using available computer resources.

I guess I'll just stay patient, since C# makes sense to me, and having already started in it with NT8, I would be backtracking also learning NT7 coding.

Looking forward to NT8B12 and final release!