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Automated Trading

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    Automated Trading

    I'm looking for a way to set stops without the market makers seeing my stops. I've heard that market makers or at least the traders at my brokerage company can see how I set my stops and can manipulate my stock's prices in order for them to execute my stops and take my money.

    I believe that I've seen them do this and I've lost a lot of money, so I'm looking for a way to code a trading platform to execute trades from the internal code of my trading platform rather than setting stops in the usual way.

    So I suspect that NinjaTrader might have this capability and if it does, then where can I find the code to do this?

    Thanks.

    #2
    I believe you need to use simulated orders.
    https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...top_orders.htm

    Comment


      #3
      Hello StockJock,

      Thank you for your post.

      As Leeroy_Jenkins stated, you would need to use simulated stop orders to hide the orders from the market. You may also program logic to submit market orders which will hide the order from the market. You could set your strategy up so that your profit target or stop loss is submitted when certain conditions are met. This would essentially be a simulated profit target/stop loss order.

      See the help guide documentation below for more information.

      Understanding Simulated Stop Orders - https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...atedStopOrders
      Simulated Stop Orders - https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...top_orders.htm
      SetStopLoss() - https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...etstoploss.htm

      Please let us know if we may assist further.
      Brandon H.NinjaTrader Customer Service

      Comment


        #4
        As others have mentioned, simulated stops can be set in your ATM. Try it out in SIM first. You'll notice the color of the stop line is different than typical color of stops.

        However a very important thing to keep in mind is that simulated stop orders are held locally on your computer. Unlike regular stop orders, which are submitted to an exchange waiting to be hit, simulated stop orders only live on your machine and are automatically sent as market orders when the price is hit. What this means is that if you lose market connection, or anything happens to your data feed, the simulated stop will be ignored. This downfall has happened to many traders where they think they are safe because they have a simulated stop, but for some reason or another their market connections is lost, and by the time they log back in the price is far beyond the stop and they suffer a large unexpected loss. Much larger than what they planned for with the stop.

        The solution here is to use a VPS to submit simulated stops through. Many live traders use a VPS to avoid connection problems. The way it works is instead of running NinjaTrader on your home computer, it is installed your server which is on 24/7. This approach fixes the problem of needing to run your home computer all the time in order to avoid data loss. Even if your connection to your VPS goes down, the simulated stop is still live on your server and will be processed accordingly while you are away.

        VPS connections are 1,000mbs, so the server is always connected to the broker/data source.
        Would highly recommend checking out
        https://www.ninjamobiletrader.com/
        They have a free trial and setup servers immediately.

        They're also listed on the NinjaTrader ecosystem:
        https://ninjatraderecosystem.com/sea...biletrader-vps




        Originally posted by StockJock View Post
        I'm looking for a way to set stops without the market makers seeing my stops. I've heard that market makers or at least the traders at my brokerage company can see how I set my stops and can manipulate my stock's prices in order for them to execute my stops and take my money.

        I believe that I've seen them do this and I've lost a lot of money, so I'm looking for a way to code a trading platform to execute trades from the internal code of my trading platform rather than setting stops in the usual way.

        So I suspect that NinjaTrader might have this capability and if it does, then where can I find the code to do this?

        Thanks.

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks to all of you who read my question and responded. I'm not clear on the suggestion to use simulated stop orders, since I'm trying to do a live order execution. I didn't say anything about simulation. I need to do a live stop order using code with NinjaTrader. Help me understand how a simulated stop order is your answer? Even if I place NinjaTrader on a VPS and keep it running, how can a simulated stop order execute a real trade?

          Thanks

          Comment


            #6
            Hello StockJock,

            Thank you for your note.

            Simulated stop orders are held locally on your computer. Unlike regular stop orders, which are submitted to an exchange waiting to be filled, simulated stop orders only live on your machine and are automatically sent as market orders when the price is reached. If the simulated stop order was placed on your Live account, the simulated stop order would be sent as a Live market order when the price is reached.

            See the help guide documentation below for more information about using simulated stop orders.

            Simulated stop orders - https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...top_orders.htm

            Please let us know if we may assist further.
            Brandon H.NinjaTrader Customer Service

            Comment


              #7
              Thank you Brandon H.,

              It sounds like this is what I wanted to do, that is trade anonymously without the market makers knowing my strategy. I'll study the information on the link that you gave me and check YouTube for any tutorials on that.

              Comment


                #8
                Simulated stops are great for anonymously placing stop orders.

                What are you doing for entries? There are also order types for anonymously placing orders so that your entry order is not sitting in the order book for market makers to see.

                Originally posted by StockJock View Post
                Thank you Brandon H.,

                It sounds like this is what I wanted to do, that is trade anonymously without the market makers knowing my strategy. I'll study the information on the link that you gave me and check YouTube for any tutorials on that.

                Comment


                  #9
                  backtester831,

                  Thanks or that idea. I'm currently studying the NT8 videos on YouTube to learn more about anonymous trading.


                  Comment


                    #10
                    For hiding entries, you could use "Market if touched" orders, or "MIT" for short.

                    When right clicking on the chart with chart trader on, you'll see an option for Buy MIT and Sell MIT. Please see attached screenshot for reference.

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	MIT entry.PNG
Views:	180
Size:	26.7 KB
ID:	1139996

                    Regular limit orders are submitted to exchanges immediately, and sit in the order books so other market participants see your sitting order.
                    MIT orders on the other hand are held locally on your computer, and only when the price touches your limit price, the order is converted to a market order and sent to the exchange. MIT uses your selected ATM strategy.
                    You can read more about it in this NinjaTrader blog post: https://ninjatrader.com/blog/hide-or...ed-orders-mit/

                    There is also an option for MIT orders for your profit target. See attached ATM screenshot for reference.

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.PNG
Views:	177
Size:	30.5 KB
ID:	1139995

                    Using all 3 (MIT orders for entries, MIT for Profit, and simulated stops loss), all of your orders are now hidden from the market.

                    However something you need to be careful with is that since your orders are hidden from the market, they are stored locally on your computer and only submitted to the exchange at the exact moment when needed. This means that if you lose internet connection, data connection, crash with the software, or any other tech related problem with your home computer, the orders will not be submitted. I can't tell you how many times traders have simulated stop losses thinking they are protected, then suddenly lose home connection and by the time they log back in the market price is well beyond their stop loss and they have a much larger loss than planned.

                    This is why a VPS like https://www.ninjamobiletrader.com/ is recommended, to ensure that your connection is never lost while using MIT and simulated stops.

                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                      #11
                      backtester831,

                      I'm think about getting an Intel NUC mini computer with low energy requirements to be left on continuously on my home network with NinjaTrader 8 active in it for catching trades. With an Emergency Power Supply (EPS), I should be ok.

                      However something you need to be careful with is that since your orders are hidden from the market, they are stored locally on your computer and only submitted to the exchange at the exact moment when needed. This means that if you lose internet connection, data connection, crash with the software, or any other tech related problem with your home computer, the orders will not be submitted. I can't tell you how many times traders have simulated stop losses thinking they are protected, then suddenly lose home connection and by the time they log back in the market price is well beyond their stop loss and they have a much larger loss than planned.
                      Click image for larger version  Name:	Intel NUC Mini Computer.jpg Views:	0 Size:	70.2 KB ID:	1140399
                      Last edited by StockJock; 02-06-2021, 09:29 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The mini computers can work, I'd get one with at least 8GB of RAM. But since you're making the larger capital investment into the hardware now, getting one with the most RAM that fits your budget is a good idea.

                        It's good that it has EPS, but more common than power loss is internet connectivity loss. For example 2 weeks ago Verizon was down for millions of customers across the US (https://www.wsj.com/articles/verizon...st-11611685745). Internet connections problems can happen on many different levels, from your home router needing to be restarted, to local community problems, and in the Verizon case an ISP backbone problem.

                        I don't know if you're active in the futures.io forum, but the founder "Big Mike" is signed up for multiple internet providers to his house, and uses special hardware & software to ensure internet redundancy. https://futures.io/tech-support/3766...edundancy.html This approach works for him, but he also started trading in the 2000's when cloud servers weren't as popular.

                        Overall, I personally go the VPS route because I want all my focus to go towards trading.



                        Originally posted by StockJock View Post
                        backtester831,

                        I'm think about getting an Intel NUC mini computer with low energy requirements to be left on continuously on my home network with NinjaTrader 8 active in it for catching trades. With an Emergency Power Supply (EPS), I should be ok.

                        Click image for larger version Name:	Intel NUC Mini Computer.jpg Views:	0 Size:	70.2 KB ID:	1140399

                        Comment


                          #13
                          backtester831,

                          I see your point that even my ISP can go down. It's especially risky to trade during bad weather conditions. Big Mike does have some interesting thoughts about this matter.

                          Thanks.
                          Last edited by StockJock; 02-08-2021, 02:07 AM.

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