Disappointed to learn that NT is unavailable with most brokers.

[Johnny]

Hi,

I hope it's okay to bring up this on these boards.

I haven't followed the 'politics' too closely for the last years, but I've noticed that NT has disappeared from most brokers offering it as a 'free' platform. I just figured it was the 'free' option that disappeared...

What I didn't know until recently is that you're basically forced to use either Ninjatrader brokerage or Interactive Brokers if you want to use Ninja for live trading. Even if you pay for it, you're not allowed to use it elsewhere...?

I love Ninjatrader and was actually prepared to pay for a lease or even buy a lifetime version now that I'm going live in January 2018, so I was very disappointed when I discovered that this is in fact not possible with my desired broker.

To be honest, I'm now considering migrating to some other platform as I like being able to trade through various brokers and not being forced to rely on one single broker/solution. Both as a principle and also for practical purposes in the future.

Any comments from Ninja on this?

Have I understood correctly that I can't buy a NT license and trade through some other broker than NT Brokerage?

If so, is this a permanent solution or are you considering letting your customers do business with other brokers while using your software (paid for)?

I fear that this might not be a smart business move for Ninjatrader and you risk losing customers this way...

Regards,

Johnny

[sledge]

Yeah it really sucked for smaller brokers that had invested time and money into the platform educating and gaining clients. Optimus is one such that comes to mind. Lots of youtube videos promoting. I'm grandfathered in with Rithmic/Dorman. But NT bought out that broker, so they invested their money and expanded their business. So it's their right also.

I'm guessing quality is probably the same and you shouldn't notice a difference. You can always give it a try and cancel.

I'd just be careful with nt8 live. I'm still on nt7 because of issues with tda in nt8. Rithmic appeared ok in nt8, but I haven't tested that in over 3 months. I do run nt8 replay because it's fast if you don't overload it.

[Johnny]

Thanks for the input, sledge.

Having given it more thought, I now seriously consider Sierra Charts instead. I'd prefer to stay with Ninja since I know and pretty much love the platform, but being forced to stay with one broker is a major disadvantage to me.

[NinjaTrader_ChelseaB]

Hello Johnny,

NinjaTrader is a free application for advanced charting, market analytics, automated strategy development, and trade simulation. We only charge for our product if and when you decide to trade live on the NinjaTrader platform. From my understanding, this has been the policy of NinjaTrader throughout the history of the company.

The brokerages supported by the NinjaTrader Platform are limited. Below is a publicly available link to a list of the supported brokers with the NinjaTrader Platform.

https://ninjatraderecosystem.com/brokers/

Further, below is a link to the NinjaTrader 8 help guide on Data by provider which shows the supported connection technologies and the types of data these connections support.

http://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/en-us/data_by_provider.htm

[Johnny]

We only charge for our product if and when you decide to trade live on the NinjaTrader platform. From my understanding, this has been the policy of NinjaTrader throughout the history of the company.

Correct, I think.

The brokerages supported by the NinjaTrader Platform are limited.

Limited, indeed. You basically don't have any options if you want to trade futures.

I think this is a very flawed business model for Ninja. You will end up with a large amount of users using it for free while executing through other brokers. Users that otherwise would have paid for it.

Sadly, I might end up being one of those. That is, I might not even continue using Ninja after learning new software.

I was planning on buying/leasing Ninja now that I went live, but since I only have that option with basically one brokerage, I'll most likely pass.

It doesn't help that your intraday margin stops at 15 minutes prior to the Close either (many brokers offer intraday margin all the way up until 5 minutes prior to the Close).

Best regards,

Johnny

[sledge]

Correct, I think.



Limited, indeed. You basically don't have any options if you want to trade futures.

I think this is a very flawed business model for Ninja. You will end up with a large amount of users using it for free while executing through other brokers. Users that otherwise would have paid for it.

Sadly, I might end up being one of those. That is, I might not even continue using Ninja after learning new software.

They've had this business model as long as I have been here.. So how is it failing?

And how are you getting live data in NT to use on other platforms without a valid paid license key?

So if you are to be "one of them", why won't you continue to use NT8 and trade via other platform?

I'm not sure what you mean by free....

[Johnny]

1. I don't know if it's failing or not. The point is they have a customer (me), who would like to pay for their platform for live trading, but since they virtually don't offer their platform to anyone else than customers in their own brokerage, I can't use it since I don't want to be tied down to one single brokerage for various reasons.

Get it?

2. I currently use NT with data I'm paying for through IQ Feed.

[koganam]

1. I don't know if it's failing or not. The point is they have a customer (me), who would like to pay for their platform for live trading, but since they virtually don't offer their platform to anyone else than customers in their own brokerage, I can't use it since I don't want to be tied down to one single brokerage for various reasons.

Get it?

2. I currently use NT with data I'm paying for through IQ Feed.

I get your point. I even agree with it somewhat, but it is really not much different from any broker who has their own platform. cf: TradeStation.

[pjsmith]

Interesting thread, so I'll add my feedback. I was looking at a different broker (for a variety of reasons I'll not go into), but although I tested them and get a _free_ high quality tick by tick datafeed, Ninjatrader will no longer work with it. Or it will, but only if you have an old 'grandfathered' key. So, I'm actually looking at switching out to another platform. The broker offers several. I already have a fully purchased lifetime license for NT, so it's a bit disappointing that whilst it will technically work and is supported, I'm unable to purchase a key to unlock that feature. They obviously want people headed to their own brokerage/data feed. That's fine if it's their model, which it seems to be, but I'll certainly be putting some effort into alternatives especially given the niggles I tend to suffer with NT. The point is, given choice, I'd very likely stay with NT8. They are forcing me to look at alternatives.

[Johnny]

Yes, we seem to have the same issue, pjsmith. We have a situation where customers want to pay for Ninja and use it at their own discretion, but is not allowed to pay for and use it. I'm not a businessman, but ultimately, I think this might be a bad move by NT.

I was planning to go with Interactive Brokers, but they have very high intraday margins now, so they're out of the question for now. I certainly don't need $500 intraday margins, but I think their intraday margins are between $4-5000 (and even higher currently) which is simply too high for me.

For disclosure, I opened an account with AMP futures. I was planning on moving forward with NT Brokerage, but the determining factor for me is that AMP allows intraday margins up until 5 minutes prior to the 4 PM US close, while NT cuts off 15 minutes prior to the close.

For me who's trading the afternoon session exclusively, this is a huge disadvantage.

Questions for Ninja:

1. Is there any chance you'll offer NT to other brokers in the future?

2. Is there any chance you would increase intraday margin availability to 5 minutes prior to the close like some of your competitors (brokers) do?

Thanks in advance.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Questions for Ninja:

1. Is there any chance you'll offer NT to other brokers in the future?

2. Is there any chance you would increase intraday margin availability to 5 minutes prior to the close like some of your competitors (brokers) do?

Thanks in advance.

1. Yes, we do plan to offer support for additional brokerages around the world. I can't comment any further than that at this time.
2. NinjaTrader Brokerage reviews margin policies on a frequent basis. At this time, there are no plans to change the intraday margin policy.

[Johnny]

Hi, Ray,

That's good news!

I understand you can't give an exact date, but could you say if this is within a month or two or more likely in a year or so?

I already opened an account with AMP (and won't be able to use Ninja), but it's not funded yet and I'm still considering if there's an alternative that would let me use Ninja. Possibly your brokerage, but the full margin in efffect 15 minutes prior to the close is a concern of mine...

Johnny

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Hi, Ray,

That's good news!

I understand you can't give an exact date, but could you say if this is within a month or two or more likely in a year or so?

I already opened an account with AMP (and won't be able to use Ninja), but it's not funded yet and I'm still considering if there's an alternative that would let me use Ninja. Possibly your brokerage, but the full margin in efffect 15 minutes prior to the close is a concern of mine...

Johnny

I can't provide further commentary on brokerage expansion. With respect to margins, while I understand how it impacts you individually, for the overwhelming majority of our clients, the policy is in place to protect them as well as our brokerage.

[RonnyKeller]

Wow, this thread is pretty scary news - I just was not aware about how much NT's ecosystem shrunk until now. My futures setup goes with Rithmic, TradeProFutures and ADMIS. Checking their websites today, it showed NO mentioning of Ninja anymore at all. So I have to rely on those companies' goodwill until they eventually cut the use of NT completely despite my Multi Broker Lifetime NT License? I really, really wasn't aware of that, deeply bothers and concerns me - one thing I really can't stand is (looming) instability in my business infrastructure...

@Ray: can you shed more light with some clarifications? Are those grandfathered contracts at least somehow save?

[pjsmith]

Wow, this thread is pretty scary news - I just was not aware about how much NT's ecosystem shrunk until now. My futures setup goes with Rithmic, TradeProFutures and ADMIS. Checking their websites today, it showed NO mentioning of Ninja anymore at all. So I have to rely on those companies' goodwill until they eventually cut the use of NT completely despite my Multi Broker Lifetime NT License? I really, really wasn't aware of that, deeply bothers and concerns me - one thing I really can't stand is (looming) instability in my business infrastructure...

@Ray: can you shed more light with some clarifications? Are those grandfathered contracts at least somehow save?

I'm guessing brokers don't like promoting software that is for all purposes, now made and distributed by a competing broker.... I can't expect it to get any better, especially considering there are financial costs to supporting NT. If anything has been shown to me last few days, it's stay flexible with your choices. NT used to enable that. Now I feel I'm getting more and more tied in. I think I'm simply waiting for the better alternative to suggest itself...