Important issue with the Ninjatrader 8 platform and team's attitude

[Atilla]

Hi everyone

I would like to share the issue i had with Ninjatrader today and i will tell you the attitude of the Ninjatrader team. I am assuming that they are not going to delete this message. Even if they do, i am going to send this message to all other forums. So I don't care.

I have a small account in my Ninjatrader brokerage account. Today I have shorted MES 06-19 and added 1 more. At 20:25 GMT+3 time, i have moved my stop-loss to 2833.25. Price hit that level but did not fill. After 5 minutes, i moved my stop to 2830.25 to stopped out in profits. It didn't work! Nothing happened. My stop did not trigger. It was right there and Ninjatrader could not stop my order.

I have tried to move it again but it was not working. I was in profit something around $20. As I said, it's not a large account. And suddenly, i saw that my trade was stopped out at 2833.25 (by -$12.50 loss). However, it was not. You can see the proofs attached.






But wait... This is not the worst part....

I have sent an email to support team. They have asked me to do some regular things like, rebooting pc, checking internet connection and etc. I could see prices were moving btw. I told them; this is not my problem and asked to refund including the profits. After that; Patrick (he claims he's the Platform Support Team Lead) replied to my email and wrote some explanations. He also wrote same regular things.

I just wanted to ask directly to get a direct reply and sent this email:

Me:

And do you mean you are going to fund my account? Can you just answer this please before i go any further.

Patrick:

Hello Atilla, I've answered your question directly in my previous message. Please see the highlighted portion of my previous message

Me:

Are you going to refund or not?

Patrick:

Hello Atilla, Thanks for the reply. My statement is very clear — we do not provide compensation for any reason. We will not be refunding your account. Please read my previous email

Me:

Ok i am going to share all screenshots with your softwares bugs in forums. Your own forums and others. I am assuming you are not going to delete it. Also tell me how can i wirhdraw? Also i am going to open a chargeback request for my life-time license. So now all you can do is to tell me how can i withdraw my money. That could be a million dollar! Thanks

After this email, Patrick stopped responding my email and someone called Chris responded and he DECIDED TO CLOSE my brokerage account:

Chris:

Hello Atilla, Thank you for the note. NinjaTrader's no refunds policy is stated in the terms of use provided upon the installation of NinjaTrader and during the purchasing process. I have included our refunds policy below: http://ninjatrader.com/FAQ#!FAQ_PlatformLicensing I have sent your request to close your NinjaTrader Brokerage account to the brokerage team.

Me:

You can not close my account. You don’t have rights to do that. You will keep it opened. But i will withdraw my money. Ah btw, try the best you can please. You know you are being mean now!

And here's someone else's reply:

Hello Atilla, Thank you for your Account with NinjaTrader Brokerage. Please be sure to read the entirety of this email. To close your account you can withdraw all the money out of the account at the following link on the website: https://ninjatrader.com/Online-Withdrawal -US wires ($30) -International Wires ($40) -Checks ($0 w/Dorman - $4 w/Phillip) Please fill out the form and where it asks for additional comments type in "Close Account" then select submit. Type the word "Balance" if you are unsure of the amount in your account. IMPORTANT: If you have Leased the NinjaTrader software and no longer want it renewed, please contact [email protected] for information on how to cancel the auto-renew lease. You may also reply to this email requesting the cancellation of your Lease and we will ensure it is done for you. Let us know if we may be of further assistance.

Me:

I am not going to cancel my account. I will withdraw the balance!

-----

They think they are number #1. They don't take any responsibility of their bugs. Software is slow and buggy. We all know this. As I stated in my email, this could be a million dollars. I don't care if they refund $20 or not. What I care is; that could be thousands or millions of dollars. This is finance thing. They must be responsible of their bugs.

Maybe they can delete this post. I dont care. I'm going to post this to all popular forums i know.

[im197]

I am curious how the nt team responds to this.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Your negative experience with NinjaTrader is extremely concerning to me. While I do not have any of the details at hand, I have reached out to our executive team for answers. Brokerage accounts are only closed upon request or in the extremely rare circumstance where a customer is abusive and unprofessional. Due the memorial day long weekend, I do not expect to have more information until early next week.

[chartish]

Are you new to futures? If a price hits your stop you are not guaranteed a fill. Your only issue with NT is if they did not send the order in. In most cases the price of the future has go through your stop for it to be filled. For example, if you are long and place a stop at 1000.25, the price most likely will have to go to 1000.50 before it will be filled. Also be aware that I have heard stories that fills with MES are not the same as ES. NT does not FILL anything. You have to determine if it is NT's order routing or is it the new exchange.

Don't blame NT right off the bat. Work with them and do some digging. BTW, no broker will refund your money. When you think a stop should have been triggered and it is not you should have immediately called NT broker.

[mrlucky1x]

MES is a new contract and may still have some slippage or lag from the exchange. Instead of having a hissy fit try to work with the parties involved to solve the problem. Write that $12.00 off to research.

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Attila,

Several issues I would like to respond to after review with our executive team.

1. I apologize for the confusion on the part of our customer service representative thinking that you wanted your account closed. Mistake on our part however, your account was NOT closed and remains open. If you would still like to withdraw your balance, please follow the withdrawal instructions sent to you or visit https://ninjatrader.com/Online-Withdrawal.

2. With respect to your inability to move your stop loss, that was a result of your NinjaTrader client losing connectivity to the Continuum servers. Connection loss, while not frequent, is one of the most common issues that come up in the risks of electronic trading.

[Atilla]

Attila,

Several issues I would like to respond to after review with our executive team.

1. I apologize for the confusion on the part of our customer service representative thinking that you wanted your account closed. Mistake on our part however, your account was NOT closed and remains open. If you would still like to withdraw your balance, please follow the withdrawal instructions sent to you or visit https://ninjatrader.com/Online-Withdrawal.

2. With respect to your inability to move your stop loss, that was a result of your NinjaTrader client losing connectivity to the Continuum servers. Connection loss, while not frequent, is one of the most common issues that come up in the risks of electronic trading.

Ray thank you for your reply in personal. I know there can be technical problems. I'm also a coder for more than 25 years. However, NinjaTrader could not recognize the connection problem. I tought, stop was hit but not filled. This usually happens against traders However, as you can see in the screenshots, the trading was active. I have waited 5 more minutes and moved my stop to get stopped out in profits. That could be thousands of dollars.

Your program is being used by hundreds of professional traders. Maybe my balance was low. I'm okay with that but your team must have accept to fund that amount to my account. If you go ahead and check my previous statement, you can easily see that I'm not someone after $30 or something. However, that would be the correct approach and i wouldn't open a thread like this.

PS: I have submitted withdrawal request.

Thanks

[counterpoint]

Just curious here but why didn't he have SERVER-SIDE OCOs? In Ninja8 aren't the orders at the exchange server-side so they work even if you lose power or your internet connection? I understand that certain order functionality and ATM strategies are on the individual's PC, but if he was simply using stop market orders or profit-taking limit orders, they should be entirely server side. Is this why his order's didn't fill? It would be good for all of us to know?

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Just curious here but why didn't he have SERVER-SIDE OCOs? In Ninja8 aren't the orders at the exchange server-side so they work even if you lose power or your internet connection? I understand that certain order functionality and ATM strategies are on the individual's PC, but if he was simply using stop market orders or profit-taking limit orders, they should be entirely server side. Is this why his order's didn't fill? It would be good for all of us to know?

The orders were working at the exchange. If you are disconnected (for whatever reason) NinjaTrader would be unable to submit any changes or receive any information about an order until a connection is re-established.

[counterpoint]

So just to be clear and put others at ease, his original stop loss order at the exchange was filled at the price he originally had it at, but he didn't know it because he wasn't connected to the CQG server at the time, even though he was still getting price data? So he wanted to move the orders but they didn't actually move because he wasn't connected? Obviously we must be connected to the internet/server in order to change our order price -so are you saying, bottom line, his stop-loss was filled at his original submitted price and all the movement he thought he was doing didn't happen because he didn't realize he had lost his server connection? Doesn't Ninja8 provide a warning/light color change from green when this happens?

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

So just to be clear and put others at ease, his original stop loss order at the exchange was filled at the price he originally had it at, but he didn't know it because he wasn't connected to the CQG server at the time, even though he was still getting price data? So he wanted to move the orders but they didn't actually move because he wasn't connected? Obviously we must be connected to the internet/server in order to change our order price -so are you saying, bottom line, his stop-loss was filled at his original submitted price and all the movement he thought he was doing didn't happen because he didn't realize he had lost his server connection? Doesn't Ninja8 provide a warning/light color change from green when this happens?

I don't have the low level details but at a high level, orders are working in the market and was filled, attempted order modifications failed due to loss of connectivity. NinjaTrader provides both audibile and visual notifications of various connection states, including loss of one.

[counterpoint]

OK -so it sounds like user error or he simply did not fully understand the platform and it's limitations. I've always been happy with NinjaTrader and have been using it since 2009. Thanks for replying Ray.