Multiple Data Series and Chart Styles

[brucerobinson]

Hello,
I use multiple Data Series in a single Panel in order to obtain Session-specific data. Implemented per Ninja video on such use whereby it is recommended to set all except the Primary Data Series to Line on Close and Transparent, for Performance considerations.

I find:
a) that secondary and tertiary Data Series do not retain their Bar Width. I set all my Bar Widths to 1. (I have Equidistant bar spacing applied)
b) if I change the Chart Timeframe, doing so changes all Data Series to the settings of the Primary Data Series i.e. I use Candlestick for the Primary

1 Min TF chart
Series 1 ETH Session Data Series Candlestick, Bar width 1
Series 2 Overnight Session Data Series LOC, Transparent, Bar Width 1
Series 3 RTH Session per 2.

Type in 10s to change to 10 Second timeframe chart
Series 1 ETH Session Data Series Candlestick, Bar width 3
Series 2 Overnight Session Data Series Candlestick, Bar Width 3
Series 3 RTH Session per 2.

The behaviour I expect is that once I have selected the Chart Properties' Settings for each Data Series, they are retained. If I change the chart from 1min to 10s, the Primary Data Series is Candlestick Bar Width 1 and the others whatever their Settings - in my case LOC Transparent, not forced to Candlestick per the Primary.

Please advise

Kind regards,

[NinjaTrader_Kate]

Hello brucerobinson,

Thank you for your post.

In my testing, it looks like this only occurs sometimes if you only have 2 data series, but pretty well all the time with 3, so I will do a little more testing to nail down this behavior. I'm unsure if this would be expected, or something we'll have to have the development team take a look at. If it's expected, we will of course put in a feature request. I'll let you know what I find out.

Thanks in advance; I look forward to resolving this for you.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate and thanks for testing/confirming.

I can't add anything re: behaviour with 2 Data Series as I do not have any, but can confirm it does the same with 4.

"I'm unsure if this would be expected" - whether it is 'expected' because that is how the development team have built it, it shouldn't be expected. I set my Settings for the chart, and expect them to be retained for each Data Series in the chart. If that is not what happens, then that is unexpected and wrong.,

Accordingly if so, it is not a 'Feature' being requested - it is a bug fix because of flawed design/coded incorrectly as it stands.
The consequence is that I cannot change a chart's timeframe without destroying the Line Style settings and hit to performance re: LOC, transparent etc. The consequence of that is that if I want to see another Timeframe I have to have an additional Window for each instrument for which I want to see that timeframe, using additional resources.

And so it goes on....
And on....
And on.

Thank you for your assistance.

Kind regards,

[NinjaTrader_Kate]

Hello brucerobinson,

Thank you for your reply.

I have confirmed this is not in line with NInjaTrader 7 behavior, and have sent this to our QA team for them to look over. I will let you know what I hear back from them.

Thanks for your patience; I look forward to resolving this for you.

[NinjaTrader_Kate]

Hello brucerobinson,

Thank you for your patience.

I've heard back from the development team, and this is actually expected.

Basically, their view is that NinjaTrader 7 behavior should not be compared here, as the change between 7 and 8 was intentional. If you change, for example, from 15 min to 30 min or from 1 range to 10 range, the chart style is respected. When you change the BarsPeriodType (minute to day or similar), then the chart style is reverted to the default style (Candlestick).

According to development, this is to try to avoid unsupported chart styles for exotic bar types.

I've put in a feature request to revert to the NinjaTrader 7 behavior. This request is being tracked under the number SFT-4690.

As with all feature requests, interest is tracked before implementation is considered, so we cannot offer an ETA or promise of fulfillment. If implemented, it will be noted in the Release Notes page of the Help Guide.

Release Notes — https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...ease_notes.htm

Please let us know if we may be of further assistance to you.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Kate and thank you for investigating and feeding back.

In response, here is my feedback to Development from a User's perspective.

The implementation adopted and explanation for it is idiotic in the extreme, the muddled thinking of coders with little grounding in the real world.

To make a distinction based upon change of BarsPeriodType is to do so based on code categorisation which is divorced from the environment in which the platform is intended to operate, i.e. the real world environment.

When I change from Day to Hour, Hour to Minute, or Minute to Second I am merely changing the order of magnitude whilst maintaining the time-based nature of the chart. Fractals, if you like. This is no different to changing a 10min to 1min or 1 range to 10 range. Except from a coding perspective of BarsPeriodType. It is what traders do in practice all the time, every day, around the world.

The 'explanation/justification' and that it is supposedly intentional just beggars belief.

In the real world - I trade off time-based charts and Sessions, for which I am required to use multiple Data Series. Simply changing from a 1 minute chart to a 10 second chart destroys my setup and there is no way around this. So I must create a new chart Window or Tab for Seconds, driven by an arbitrary code-based BarsPeriodType categorisation, for each Instrument. With all the incumbent resource and maintenance implications. And, the response to any deterioration in performance resulting therefrom will be 'you have too many Data Series, too many Indicators, too many Charts, overly complicated workspace, third-party indicators necessary to overcome the platform's shortcomings in basic functionality...'. And why is that......?

As far as "According to development, this is to try to avoid unsupported chart styles for exotic bar types" goes, how many people does Development think want to trade using Sessions or any other requirement to use multiple Data Series, and drop down from a minute chart to a second chart, compared with how many want to introduce some unsupported chart style for esoteric exotic bar chart type which may or may not even cause issue. In many years frequenting this and the 7 Forum I have never seen such an issue raised. But I see threads with hundreds of posts on 7 and 8 going back years wanting a simple solution to RTH & ETH Sessions and bars, and the performance issues resulting from the complexity NinjaTrader requires in order to achieve the simplest and most basic of functionality. And this CHANGE from 7 behaviour simply makes it worse with another ill-conceived and poorly thought through retrograde change to 'expected behaviour'.

Yet another gargantuan waste of my time investigating unexpected design/behaviour, and the consequence of increasingly overly complex workspace to meet simple real world trading needs.

The lunatics clearly are running the asylum.

NannyTrader - by coders, for coders.

Kind regards,

[pjsmith]

fwiw, I suffer long term with exactly the same issue. I would say, based on my experience, as bruce points out, it is an undesirable behaviour for 'real' traders. It is in fact so undesirable, I spent an inordinate amount of time and wrote my own bar types to resolve the issue! this sort of thing comes up again and again and again.

[NinjaTrader_Jim]

Hello brucerobinson and pjsmith,

We have noted your feedback.

So we are on the same page, "Expected" means the functionality is implemented as per original design specs. In this case, when BarsPeriodType or similar changes the Chart Style is supposed to switch to the default Chart Style.

What is expected in specs is not always what users desire. We note those requested changes and make changes based on demand and feasibility.

Strong language and insulting others does not bring anything productive to the table. We track your feedback and use it to make decisions on how things should be changed in future versions of NinjaTrader. We ask that you provide your feedback without the strong language as your point carries much more gravity without it.

pjsmith, your vote has been added.

We look forward to assisting.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Jim and my apologies. I agree with your sentiment and in the hundreds of posts I have made am invariably respectful.
My intention was not to be otherwise. rather it reflects strength of feeling and un-ending frustration.

Having re-read my posts above, the point is clear - it is a change from 7 to 8, which has a large detrimental impact on functionality for my use.
Investigating it has taken a considerable amount of time.
Working around it will require a considerable amount of time, and may have performance issues.

I stand by that, albeit on reflection not some of the way I said it.

Kind regards,.