Route orders through CQG while using Rithmic market data

[Hyper]

I came to NinjaTrader from Amp where I used ATAS and Rithmic to route and analyze Market Depth. ATAS could not be made reliable; so I adapted my C# code to Ninja's Indicator framework, no problem. My preferred setup would have been Rithmic routing and data. HOWEVER, it appears the clearing/risk forces high margins on Rithmic routing. SO... I want to route through CQG, but switch off their Market Data and, instead subscribe through Rithmic to Market Data and feed that into NT8. This would be the same as Kinetick, but K offers only 10 levels of Depth; and I can get at least 40 from Rithmic. During our ATAS testing, we were receiving from 500-800 Market Depth change events average per second during active ES market times. And were able to extend to 40 tiers (ticks) Bid side, as well as Ask side of the market. My analysis is very critical, so I have to make this work in NT8, no matter what code I may need to write. I could not get the performance through an external R-Trader link; so that's a non-starter for me. WHAT ARE MY OPTIONS? I'm happy coding up an adapter; provided I can switch off CQG data; and merge Rithmic Market data into Ninja, so that Strategies and Indicators, etc. work "naturally" within NT8. PLEASE ADVISE ! Thanks for your help on this.

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

I've moved your post to it's own topic because it was not really related to the topic you originally posted under.

I recognize your question because you've asked us via email to find a solution for you. I suggest following up with those emails to ensure one smooth conversation without any disjointed information across multiple mediums of communication. You also have a new open ticket with my colleagues on the Brokerage Support Team. They'll be reaching out to you in the order in which they received your message.

The only technical way this would be feasible would be to have two accounts - one using Rithmic technology and the other CQG. Within the platform, you could then set your preferred connections to Rithmic. This will populate all windows with data from Rithmic while giving you the ability to place trades to your CQG-based account.

My colleagues at NinjaTrader Brokerage will be able to answer specific questions about how to facilitate the account-side of things, so follow up there with any account-related questions. If you have technical questions about how to configure this as described above once you have both accounts, ask those questions here.

[Hyper]

Patrick, you said "The only technical way this would be feasible would be to have two accounts - one using Rithmic technology and the other CQG. Within the platform, you could then set your preferred connections to Rithmic. This will populate all windows with data from Rithmic while giving you the ability to place trades to your CQG-based account."

I was looking for any community based responses, in addition to trying with Ninja Support; so I accept getting my hand slapped

When you say "two accounts" what are these "accounts"? Rithmic will offer me a data subscription, and I want to replace all CQG market data with that feed. How I will be able to implement that feed is, for now, an open question. To me, it's like using Kinetick; only using Rithmic instead; which does not look like an out of the box option in NT8. I'd love an out of the box solution; since I have enough coding to do. But I'll await suggestions from support, as to whether it will be difficult, or easy to achieve the end goal.

Thanks !

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Please ask this account-based question to my colleagues at NinjaTrader Brokerage. They will be reaching out to you shortly via the email you sent them earlier today and will be able to answer all account-related questions.

[Hyper]

Patrick, I was asking what you meant when you said "account"?

you said: "Please ask this account-based question to my colleagues at NinjaTrader Brokerage. They will be reaching out to you shortly via the email you sent them earlier today and will be able to answer all account-related questions."

I gather you meant 2 Ninja Brokerage Accounts? That doesn't sound at first glance like an elegant solution; though you guys know more about Ninja's policies than I would.
I'm looking for a technical solution.

So many moving parts in this Futures game. LOL

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

There is no other technical solution as you cannot develop your own API in the manner in which you intend to use it.

[Hyper]

I think it's best we don't exchange any more; until I can speak with someone about this. If a Kinetick feed only adapter is available; then you're saying it's technically impossible for a Rithmic feed only adapter to be developed? They seem to be exactly the same concept. But am I wrong about that? Whether you say "yes" or "no" I'll probably not be posting more here, until I hear from the various gods at NinjaTrader. But THANKS !

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Rithmic is not a supplementary data feed in the same way that Kinetick is. A Rithmic-based data feed is only available in combination with a brokerage account.

[Hyper]

"Rithmic is not a supplementary data feed in the same way that Kinetick is. A Rithmic-based data feed is only available in combination with a brokerage account."

OK, Patrick, you may be right about the other stuff. But, in this case, you are in error.

I have a quote for the full Rithmic feed I need which is not in any way connected with their Order Routing.

But Ninja has effectively bundled the Rithmic Order Routing and the Feed together; and it is that
bundling which you're talking about.

[Hyper]

So, the help I need from Ninja support is that you point me to the feed connector class framework; and I'll code up an adapter which has the same functionality as the Kinetick adapter; and will allow me to have the data quality and quantity I need.

Since Ninja is so elegantly documented, and extremely powerful; that is the information I'll be needing to solve my issue and incorporate the feed which I need to use.

That would be greatly appreciated; and I'll take on the development, realizing that I'll get very little support, but that's just fine.

Thanks in advance !

[bltdavid]

Since Ninja is so elegantly documented, and extremely powerful; that is the information I'll be needing to solve my issue and incorporate the feed which I need to use.

As a retail customer, I don't think you'll ever be able to get the information you need.

[If you somehow became a business partner and entered into a business agreement,
and as such had extensive talks with NT upper mgmt, then I suppose that is how new
APIs get supported and new adapters get written, even then, do realize your new biz
agreement may still mean NT engs may do all the dev work, not you. If you want to
be a business partner, you need a business. And, don't fool yourself, deep business
agreements require money, and it may not be cheap. Even if Rithmic themselves
were negotiating to make a data feed only NT adapter available, it's quite possible
NT upper mgmt may deem the business proposal as 'not viable at this time' -- Why?
they are really busy elsewhere, bandwidth may be limited, it would be a competitor
to Kinetick (which NT owns or partly owns), may not be part of their 5yr roadmap,
who knows, lots of reasons -- obstacles that are overcome by money. Just my 2˘.]

So, how does a retail trader solve this?

It's really pretty easy.

1. You'll need the Multi-Broker License.

2. Open two separate accounts, one as Rithmic and the other as CQG.

3. Setup NT8 to use the Rithmic connection for the data feed.

4. 'Select' CQG order routing simply by making trades in your CQG account.

The MBL is required, since Rithmic and CQG/Continuum are different broker
technologies. If you are using the same broker for both accounts, make sure
they know exactly what you're trying to do.

[bltdavid]

"Rithmic is not a supplementary data feed in the same way that Kinetick is. A Rithmic-based data feed is only available in combination with a brokerage account."

OK, Patrick, you may be right about the other stuff. But, in this case, you are in error.

He is not in error.

From the perspective of the NinjaTrader product, he is an authority.

Patrick was referring to what is supported and built and supplied by NinjaTrader,

Whatever Rithmic offers on the side as 'supplementary' is immaterial to
how the NinjaTrader product is organized and offered.

[Hyper]

In summary, all of you guys are correct. NinjaTrader has organized its Rithmic relationship in such a way, for business reasons, that this Multi-Account situation is the only viable "out of the box" solution. That's the solution I've been persuaded to accept. And, because later on, I will want to use Rithmic Order Routing; even though right now I want to route by CQG, it is actually a very good trajectory for my trading work. It was just frustrating until I finally came to the Multi-Account solution, which fits into my current and future plans.

Sure, I had to open another FCM sub-account; and "Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh, My!" that raises red flags; but in my case there is no other existing Ninja Solution.

I wanna thank all of the Ninja staff who eventually steered me in the right direction; since I did not want to invest a lot of time in a custom feed solution.

So that's what I did, decided on the Multi-Account solution; and I'll know definitively, in a couple of days whether I can get the incoming data quality I previously used with the ATAS platform which I had to abandon, due to unreliability. Thank gawd for the great in-depth Ninja support; and especially the high quality documentation !!

So this is a Happy Ending, I am very very impressed by Ninja Trader, despite this little configuration delay snafu; and all of my needs are being met. Still lots of coding to do, etc., but "that's why we make the Big Bux" as they say !

I can see why so many swear by (and not at) NinjaTrader. It's really a fabulous platform, with great support !!

hyperscalper

[bltdavid]

So this is a Happy Ending, I am very very impressed by Ninja Trader, despite this little configuration delay snafu; and all of my needs are being met.

That is excellent news!

Yep, the most natural and elegant way to solve your problem
is already builtin and amazingly simple -- just open those two
different accounts -- but don't forget, the MBL is still required
to make your scenario work.

And, btw ... welcome to the family!

[Hyper]

That is excellent news!

Yep, the most natural and elegant way to solve your problem
is already builtin and amazingly simple -- just open those two
different accounts -- but don't forget, the MBL is still required
to make your scenario work.

And, btw ... welcome to the family!

Well, not to nit-pick, but the most elegant solution would have been
a Kinetick-like feed only from Rithmic; but I don't want to complain
too much. Given that I started with Rithmic Order Entry and
Feed with the ATAS platform (may it rest in peace); and we
discovered the width and resolution; I was hooked. My Market
Depth analysis does yield some decent results with a 10-wide
DOM, but having a wider ranging "radar" with 40-wide does
open up some opportunities I just couldn't pass up.''

Also, I am very interested in Rithmic Order routing for the
future; and I was very attracted by Rithmic's OMNE offer
to be hosted in their data center for only $500/month with
a 32gb dedicated server... Once you go "dedicated" you
can't really go back, LOL Currently I have a nice 32gb
system in NYC, but that was only because my host provider
Hostround, doesn't have a Chicago area data center.

My real question at this moment is "what is MBL?" When you
tell me, I'm sure to say "Duh... shooda known that one"

[edit] I figured it out !!! Multi Brokerage License, that's what MBL
means. Well, in the end an MBL was not required; I have the
lifetime license. However, the multi-brokerage setup is definitely
required, meaning a sub-account at the FCM clearing; in order
for all of this to work "out of the box". As I said before, this
does actually fit into my eventual plan to use Rithmic Order Routing
so, although it is inconvenient now; in the future it will be what
I actually need ! So, good for you NinjaTrader; you have
covered all the bases for me !! Starting to love Ninja...
You guys Rock, once it is all explained.

hyperscalper