Why no P&F in NT8?

[johnnymustard]

Hello all,

Why aren't there Point & Figure charts available in NT8?
I'm referring to the original P&F which is not based on ticks, volume or time.
The original is based on price moving a certain amount to plot
further X's or O's.

There are 8 settings for P&F and 6 of those are time based. The whole
reasoning for P&F is to remove time from the chart. Most glaringly
obvious is that none of the P&F settings are price based.

Having these other options is great and I'm sure plenty of people like them
but that doesn't account for the lack of the original incarnation.

If I'm missing it, my apologies but I clearly only see tick, volume and time settings
when I try to open a P&F chart. NONE of these settings are price based.

Can someone explain this to me?
I thank you in advance and I hope everyone is staying healthy, JM

[NinjaTrader_ShawnB]

Hello johnnymustard,

Thank you for your post.

In NinjaTrader, PointAndFigure bars are built based on price movement. Each bar plots a column made up of either X's representing a rising price or O's representing a decreasing price. Each X or O is referred to as a "box" and represents the price distance defined by the Box size (set in terms of ticks). A new X or O box will be added to the bar when price moves more than the Box size, warranting the addition of another box. Since the PointAndFigure bars are built based on price movement, there would not be an option to select price as the base period type. Here is the Bar Types Help Guide to assist you further.

Another parameter, called the Reversal, sets the amount of price movement needed from the High or Low to change from X's to O's, or from O's to X's. A column will continue indefinitely until a price reversal equal to the Reversal amount (set in number of boxes) occurs. There can never be two columns of X's or O's next to each other for a given session, as any additional X's or O's would be added to the current column instead. When a reversal occurs, the next column begins one box size above the last Low for X's, or one box size below the last High for O's.

Please do not hesitate to contact us for any other NinjaTrader inquiries you may have.

[johnnymustard]

NT_ShawnB,
I thank you for your rapid response.
JM

[johnnymustard]

NinjaTrader_ShawnB,
I'm asking again because it doesn't make sense and I didn't have time to screw around with it 6 weeks ago.
If NT8's P&F charts are based on price, why do they look different with different settings, for the same trading session?
The PRICES are the same but the charts look different and they shouldn't. Price is price.


I have 9 images, all from about 0500 to about 1145 for 9/24/2020 for the CL contract.
But since I can only upload 5 at a time, I'll put the next four in a separate post.
If NT8 P&F was based on price, all 9 would look the same. Can we agree on that?
The prices for CL today are what they are. Why do they ALL look different on supposedly price based charts?

The nine pics are:
Seconds in 50, 500 and 5000 increments.
Ticks in 50, 500 and 5000 increments.
Volume in 50, 500 and 5000 increments.

How can you tell me they're based on price when they so very clearly are not?
They're based on seconds, ticks or volume in my examples.
A rising column of X's will turn into a falling column of O's the moment it hits 500 Ticks, for example.
That is NOT price based, it's tick based. The two are different.
Box size = 1, Reversal = 3 for all 9 images.
The only settings I changed were seconds, ticks, volume, 50, 500 and 5000.

So when I ask why don't all 9 charts look the same for the same session, you're going to tell me
I'm using seconds, ticks and volume in different increments. That's true, I am.
BUT yet again that is not price based. If it was they'd look the same.
They are seconds, ticks and volume based. That's why they all look different using the same data.

I look forward to your response and an explanation of how I can use price based P&F in NT8.
Thank you, JM

[johnnymustard]

Here are the other 4....

[NinjaTrader_ShawnB]

Hello johnnymustard,

Thank you for your post.

Here is the Understanding Point and Figure bars to help explain this bar type and how it is built in NinjaTrader.

You can see a list of all the Bar Types available in NinjaTrader and an explanation how each Bar Type is created in a chart in the NT8 Help Guide at the link below.

Bar Types

Please do not hesitate to contact us for any other NinjaTrader inquiries you may have.

[johnnymustard]

NinjaTrader_Shawn_B,
I do appreciate your efforts to answer my question.
I can assure you that I do not need to review my understanding of P&F charts.
How P&F bars are built in NT8 is a different story, evidently.
It seems that you cannot even consider the possibility that NT8 might be
doing it NOT based on price. The only problem with that
is you keep telling me it IS based on price.

I do thank you for pointing me to that that help guide page.
The part of the help guide you directed me to is not a price based P&F chart.
It is a 1 minute based P&F chart example. This is obvious from the green arrows
you put in there, not me. You're just proving my point for me.

NT8 P&F has a dropdown menu for tick, volume, second, minute,
day, week, month, year. Price based P&F would have a blank in that same dropdown.
Price based P&F is:
Box Size = user defined amount of PRICE movement.
Reversal = user defined multiple of box size.
That's it. That is a price based P&F chart.
Time, ticks and volume never enter into it.

Sad as it is, I have to pay someone to build a price based P&F.
I'm on it. When it's done, I'll post pics for the 9/24/2020 CL contract
from 0500 to about 1145 right here in this thread.
Let's see if the two are the same. I predict that they will not be the same.
I'll post whether I'm right or wrong. I look forward to the comparison.

The only limitation is NT8 itself to accept the code. I'm confident NT8 will
and that is one of the biggest reasons why I like NT.
Obviously, I'm disappointed it's come to this but so be it.

In conclusion, thank you so much for completely ignoring the pictures
I provided to clearly show that NT8 P&F charts are not based on price,
but rather seconds, ticks or volume. If it was based on price,
they'd look the same. The prices are the same but the charts are different.
Why? Well, the settings of seconds, ticks or volume are why. None of those
are price.

Thank you huge for absolutely disregarding the glaringly obvious
comparison of the 50 seconds, 50 ticks and 50 volume charts against each other.
And then explaining why they look different even though, according to you,
they are all based on the same prices, during the same session.
That's a huge step in a positive direction far as resolving this question.
Nice work, well done

I thank you and look forward to getting this resolved,
JM

[NinjaTrader_RyanS]

Hello,

NinjaTrader PnF bars require a base period, as the the base period type/value will set the base from where the P&F boxes are build. A base is required in order to start calculating what boxes and columns would be created out of the underlying price action.This may differ from other PnF chart styles you have seen or been using.

If you're looking to create a pure price action PnF chart, you can consider using a 1 tick or 1 volume base period to have the PnF chart calculate in as granular method as possible.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.