When does initial margin kick in?

[kazisl]

So if I sell my ES shares at 3:45 PM (15 min before close), and buy a new position at 5:00 when the market opens, does that keep the margin as intraday margin? Even if I hold the shares from for nearly 22 hours from 5 PM to 3:45 PM? Does it only kick in if I hold the contracts from 4 to 5 PM?

[NinjaTrader_Jim]

Hello kazisl,

Thanks for your post.

Initial margin is required to hold an overnight position while Intraday margin would apply for regular trading hours.

https://ninjatrader.com/blog/futures-margin-day-trading-vs-overnight-trading/

This also may be a question to best discuss with your broker. If you have a NinjaTrader Brokerage account, you may contact brokeragesupport [at] ninjatrader [dot] com to ask specifics regarding margin.

Let me know if there is anything else we can do to help.

[AssIsChubby]

This confused the hell out of me at first, and I still don't know if I understand it corrrectly. The post at https://ninjatrader.com/blog/futures...night-trading/ just confused me even more when I read it. In all of these explainations ninjatrader is calling it an "overnight position". While I took that litterally I still had no answers as to when the markets actually opened up again. Ninjatrader posts and forums direct you to the CME page where it tells you that trading opens at 17:00 and closes at 15:15, then reopens at 15:30 and closes at 16:00 for the E-mini S&P 500 Futures. None of those timeframes suggest the market is closed "overnight". It is simply closed for 15 minutes at 15:15 and closed for an hour at 16:00. Given this information one might assume that those 2 timeframes might constitute the "overnight" hours. It is quite frustrating that it cannot be explained in a more simple way. After digging through 100's of web pages and forum posts I still had no solid answers. After stumbling across the Trading Hours section in the Tools menu I finally discovered something I could use. In the templates window on the left side I can scroll down to the CBOT US Index Futures and find that there are 2 diffenrent templates. One has ETH behind it, which I assume meaans extended trading hours, or as ninjatrader posts refer to it, "overnight". This has a session start time of 5:00 PM on Sunday and 3:30 PM Monday through Thursday with a end time of 3:30 PM Monday through Friday. Then if I look at the CBOT US Index Futures RTH, which I am assuming means regular trading hours, I get the start time of 8:30 AM Monday through Friday with an end time of 3:15 PM each day. I don't know for sure if this is what is refered to as the "Intraday" trading hours in all the posts, but it is what I have been using and haven't run into any issues. It would be nice if this were spelled out in plain english somewhere on ninjatrader. Sometimes I am an idiot and I need instructions for an idiot to understand what is being taught.

Using the hours provided I used the strategy builder to produce an intraday trading strategy. I have attached it so others can use it if they find it helpful.

CBOTIntradayTradingHoursExample.zip

[Lancer]

When the three margin conditions apply, and exceptions:

(Example times applicable to CME products with markets closed between 4:00 PM and 5:00 PM CT, excluding holidays. All times are US Central Time.)

Intraday Margin
The broker Intraday Margin requirement applies to open positions during the current intraday session, between the 5:00 PM session start and the Intraday Margin end at 3:45 PM on the next day. Intraday Margin applies during this time period to new positions opened during the current session, and to existing open positions carried forward from a prior session.

Initial Margin
The exchange Initial Margin requirement is effective between the 3:45 PM Intraday Margin end time and the CME session end fifteen minutes later at 4:00 PM, and is applicable to an open position if there is a trade during the current session in the same futures product as the open position.

When the open position during this time period is an existing position carried forward from a prior session, and there was no trade in the same futures product during the current session, then Initial Margin does not apply. Instead, Maintenance Margin applies.

Maintenance Margin
The exchange Maintenance Margin requirement is effective between the 3:45 PM Intraday Margin end time and the CME session end fifteen minutes later at 4:00 PM, and is applicable only to an existing open position carried forward from a prior session, and only if there is no trade in that same futures product during the current session.

When the open position during this time period is an existing position carried forward from a prior session, and there was a trade in the same futures product during the current session, then Maintenance Margin does not apply. Instead, Initial Margin applies.

Exceptions
The exchange or broker may change margin requirements at any time, without notice. Exceptional margin changes are typically due to volatile market conditions, anticipated or actual, and the broker determining that higher margin is required for additional protection. At NinjaTrader, notice of exceptional margin changes are posted at the Order Desk Updates web page:

https://ninjatrader.com/blog/order-desk-updates/

Additional reference:

https://ninjatrader.com/Margins-Position-Management

https://ninjatrader.com/blog/futures...hange-margins/
https://ninjatrader.com/PDF/ninjatra...ct_details.pdf

[TradingLoss]

Initial Margin = 3:45-5:00PM CT

Pro-tip, get out of your intraday positions at 3:40 CT unless you have the margin to maintain and hold it overnight into the GLOBEX open at 5PM CT. At 5PM it resets to intraday.

Solution: Trade with a larger account so you don't have to worry about margin requirements.

[AssIsChubby]

Thank You Lancer and TradingLoss. I wish my "overnight" was only an hour and fifteen minutes! I could so much more done in a day.

[Powlash]

kazisl It's hard to answer your question without knowing all the nuances! Margin is the difference between the cost of a product and the price at which the product is sold. The cost price includes all costs for production, purchase, packaging, and logistics of goods, including raw materials, gas, electricity, and staff salaries. Marginality can be calculated using different formulas. I just started to delve into this topic and thought that I couldn't cope without a professional, so I turned to a few sites https://parentportfolio.com/contribu...argin-formula/. A very difficult thing for me. But I don't want to stop because money loves stubborn! I hope you don't stop and find the answer soon!