NT8 not respecting session template in daily, weekly, monthly charts

[RonnyKeller]

When charting the instrument ES 12-16 with session template "CME US Index Futures RTH"(which contains day-session only), daily, weekly and monthly charts still seem to use overnight globex data. This results in Swing-Highs/-Lows printed that do not exist on intraday charts. I could cheat on the daily charts with setting them to "405 Minute charts", but this trick is obviously not possible for weekly and monthly charts.

This behavior changed compared to NT7. Please compare the two attached screenshots of a weekly chart of NT 7 and NT8 - the huge down spike (marked yellow) occured overnight and should not be shown.

In order to draw correct Support/Resistance-levels, it is mandatory to have longer timeframe charts respecting the underlying session template.

[NinjaTrader_ChristopherD]

Hello RonnyKeller,

Thank you for your post.

For NinjaTrader 7, we used RTH values for daily. When we made the switch to NinjaTrader 8, we saw a greater demand to use ETH values for daily data. It would not be possible to change these settings as it relates to daily charts or any bar type built from daily data.

If you would like to apply a different session template to daily charts, you can use a period value of 1440 minutes instead of one day. To apply a different session template to a weekly chart, you could use a minute value of 10080 (1440 x 7).

Feel free to contact us if you are ever in need of support.

[RonnyKeller]

ChristopherD, this is an insult to any readers intelligence, and proves you were not even reading my post in details - I already mentioned that a workaround for the "daily session only" would be "405 minutes" (and NOT 1440 minutes!!!)

1440 minutes IS 24 hours x 60, so a full 24hrs-day. In what universe would this resolve my request to show "day-session" values only??? And how would you put a daysession-only "weekly"-bar together by displaying "10080 minutes" as this is - again - the full 24hrs range of a week???
Please go and use a calculator before answering with such disqualifying rubbish...

And for the "change from NT7 to NT8": While it was possible to have BOTH variants in NT7, using exactly your approach from above ("weekly" for session, "10080" for 24hours) - please show me what steps you're going to use to display a session-only weekly chart, since "weekly" and 10080 minutes are the same now?

I state this probably the fourth or fifth time since NT8 Beta was released, and I'll repeat it here:
This is just another proove that the developers who built NT8 really, really have absolutely NO clue about trading or even intraday trading. Disappointing, just like your answer to my request...

[NinjaTrader_ChristopherD]

Hello RonnyKeller,

If you create a 1440 minute chart, NinjaTrader will limit the data points based on whichever session template you choose for the chart. So if you create a 1440 minute chart and then apply a RTH session template, the bars of the chart will only plot data from within the regular trading hours. The same would be true for a 10080 minute chart if you want to create "weekly" bars based on a specific session template.

Feel free to contact us if you are ever in need of support

[RonnyKeller]

Ok, this is getting a bit annoying, I guess. Did you ever try your "solution" before providing it? Let's have a look.

Using suggested "10080 minutes" timeframe and applying a "session-only" RTH-template could mean:

a) NT reads 10080 minutes, skips everything but the day-session data and creates a bar whenever a new 10080-minutes slot begins.

As the day-session contains only 405 minutes per day, or 5 x 405 =2025 minutes per week, the chart should look the same, whether we set 10080, 5000 or said 2025 minutes as "underlying" timeframe, since we "use" the valid 405 minutes a day only anyway.

Comparing a 10080-minutes chart to a 5000- or 2025-minutes chart in NT8 shows: NO match (to be honest: everything else would have been a huge surprise...)

Btw - while trying to chart those "weekly RTH" we find out that we MUST disable "Break at EOD" - because otherwise we get one "weekly" bar for every new calendar day - one weekly bar for Oct, 26th, one weekly bar for Oct, 27th and so on.

Now to approach b):
Let's assume the system would indeed try to fill a bar on a "10080 minutes"-chart with so much data that it finally can complete one full bar, before reading further data for the second bar. This brings up the question "Where does it start?" Does it magically know to break incomplete bars every Friday evening, based on the RTH-template?

Let's find out again:
Open a new chart for "ES 12-16", set its timeframe to "10080 minutes", disable "break at EOD" and use "days to load = 21". Result: we get something that looks like weekly bars, but oddly enough, the first one begins with "Wednesday, Oct, 26th", the second bar with data of "Thursday, Nov, 3rd", the 3rd bar begins with data of "Friday, Nov, 11th". Huuh?

Well, let's give it a little twist - this time we load 22 days instead of 21 only.
And now the 1st bar starts on "Tuesday, Oct, 25th", the 2nd bar on "Wednesday, Nov, 2nd" and so on.
It's very obvious that NT8 tries to fill the necessary data somehow into the defined time-frame, starting simply enough with the first data found within the given day-to-be-loaded - and of course NOT breaking for new "weeks".

Not only does this NOT show "weekly" data, charting only some useless bars trying to cover a certain number of minutes. But it must be obvious to just about everyone, that the exact same chart will CHANGE EVERY DAY I OPEN IT. Watching the "weekly" chart on a Tuesday will look completely different to watching it on a Thursday and so on.

But that's not even the end of the mess. Let's go one step ahead, and you try to tell me, how to chart a proper "Monthly" chart. Should I use 22 days (22 x 1440 = 31680? Or maybe 22 x 405 = 8910?) , close to the average number of sessions within a month? Or should I use 30 or 31 sessions (31 x 1440 = 44640?), trying to match calendar data? Oh wait, what to do with February? Should I try to "cut out" a little every February? Or stretch it a bit with null-data to reach the mentioned 31 sessions?

You know, this is ridiculous - and all this could have easily been avoided BEFORE implementing one single line of code. I'm a software architect for more than twenty years and a day trader for 15 years and I think the developers here understand neither one. Take a pen and a sheet of paper and you should figure within five minutes that this approach never can work in first place.

[slightly]

When charting the instrument ES 12-16 with session template "CME US Index Futures RTH"(which contains day-session only), daily, weekly and monthly charts still seem to use overnight globex data. This results in Swing-Highs/-Lows printed that do not exist on intraday charts. I could cheat on the daily charts with setting them to "405 Minute charts", but this trick is obviously not possible for weekly and monthly charts.

This behavior changed compared to NT7. Please compare the two attached screenshots of a weekly chart of NT 7 and NT8 - the huge down spike (marked yellow) occured overnight and should not be shown.

In order to draw correct Support/Resistance-levels, it is mandatory to have longer timeframe charts respecting the underlying session template.

Something similar I've found too for forex , regarding the wick of bar. In my case, I have discovered it appear only when I change the timezone. If I set +2 timezone, that wick on last bar appear. if I change to -6 or any other timezone, that wick dissapear. Also that wick dissapear if I check the option "Break at EOD" and reappear if it's set. When I change the timezone different than +2 , everything seem to be ok . Original post here

http://ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=92189

Did you tried that ? Mabe will solve your problem.

[RonnyKeller]

@slightly: Nope, you cannot solve NT's sudden incapability to handle session-data on weekly or monthly charts by tweaking the timezone since the problem I reported is obviously a software design failure - it's all about whether one is able to think two steps ahead instead of only one before writing code.and it can't be solved with the suggested "resolutions", not even in theory.

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

NinjaTrader daily historical data was changed from RTH to ETH in NinjaTrader 8 as there was high demand for ETH data from many clients. We are always open to suggestions from users.

The 1440 minute chart will work for daily charts and RTH times (or any intra-day trading hours template) you seek.

all NinjaTrader trading hour templates are built with daily sessions I.E - Sunday 6PM to Monday 5PM.

This would not work for weekly/monthly/yearly minute-based charts as it is not possible to create a multi-day trading hours template with break at EOD disabled.

This is an excellent suggestion for a feature request for those who desire the same as you: RTH only daily and larger charts. I'll make sure to submit this to the Development Team.

[RonnyKeller]

NinjaTrader daily historical data was changed from RTH to ETH in NinjaTrader 8 as there was high demand for ETH data from many clients.

I just don't get it - the other way round BOTH variants were possible, ETH and RTH. Why change to something supporting only one side now?
In NT7 you could cover that "HUGE" ETH-demand as well as the (therefore less huge?) RTH-demand, and now you have no solution anymore for one of the two sides?
Come on - what software would remove one of two already existing features, just for no reason?

This is an excellent suggestion for a feature request for those who desire the same as you: RTH only daily and larger charts. I'll make sure to submit this to the Development Team.

IF you really forward this to your developers, do tell them to not only "break", but also ALWAYS begin with a Monday for a new "pseudo weekly bar", and ALWAYS begin with the first (work-?) day of a month for "pseudo-monthly bars"... (I wouldn't be surprised to receive a solution that tries to paint "Wednesday-to-Tuesday-weeks"...)

The 1440 minute chart will work for daily charts and RTH times.

I did not test it, but I have a strong feeling that your suggestion of using 1440 minutes and a RTH-template will only provide correct daily data as long as you ENable "Break on EOD". Having disabled this feature, NT would likely concat several days until 1440 minutes are reached to draw a bar
If so, it would be annoying to switch from "daily RTH" to "weekly RTH" since you would need to DISable and ENable "Break on EOD" going back and forth.
I strongly assume that the only working minutes setting would be "405" if you have "break on EOD" disabled, maybe you want to test that before forwarding this to your developers...


To me this current behavior is a show stopper; I will not use NT8 as long as there are no correctly readable weekly and monthly S/R-levels (like e.g. an "RTH Alltime-High" or a correct "RTH Low-of-last-week" or so) available.

[stefan86]

I have the same problem.

Would be nice if i can show Daily, Weekly, Monthly in RTH at NT8!

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

I have the same problem.

Would be nice if i can show Daily, Weekly, Monthly in RTH at NT8!

Thanks for your feedback. I will forward this to the Development Team.

[Harry]

I have the same problem.

Would be nice if i can show Daily, Weekly, Monthly in RTH at NT8!

In fact, NinjaTrader 8 is not different here from NinjaTrader 7. All daily, weekly and monthly bars are loaded as supplied from the data provider. Session templates are only applied to intraday data.

The only thing that has changed is the way one of the data providers supplies daily data. For example, as a Kinetick customer I have always had full session daily data. So for me there is no difference between NinjaTrader 7 and NinjaTrader 8. I was very happy with the KInetick data feed, because I am getting the settlement price for futures, which was not the case for data suppliers who offered daily data based on the regular session.

Showing a daily RTH chart:

You can easily show daily RTH data on your chart. Just open a 1440 min chart and select the correct RTH session template for the instrument.

For weekly and monthly charts, this is not easy to without changing the data feed. In the past I have used indicators on my daily and intraday charts showing RTH high and RTH low of the prior week and the prior month. This was good enough. If you need such indicators, I will make them available for NinjaTrader 8.

[RonnyKeller]

@Harry
a) please check the attached charts in my initial post in this thread - both are from the SAME datafeed, Ninja just changed the way they bundle data together to a "daily" or "weekly" bar
b) those "use 1440 minutes and it works" statements drive me nuts. OF COURSE, you can use "1440 minutes" plus an RTH-template. But you can also use e.g. 1021 minutes or 783 minutes, just everything - as long as it is above 405 minutes (for the forementioned ES-symbol) - I'm not an idiot
c) I wrote gazillion lines of code in my life and I do can write an indicator to show me a fake-RTH-Weekly-High. But I cannot get correct price action patterns on a monthly or a weekly chart ("did candle xy indeed break below the Swing Low 38 bars ago? Or was only the overnight-session breaking below, but the RTH did not? Or, even better - was there REALLY that swing low mentioned 38 bars ago? OR did this Low only exist overnight, and RTH was not even a new Swing Low at that time? And what about that Trendline - does it connect two or three swings that really exist in RTH? Or fake overnighties? How would you EVER trust such a chart? And how could you ever put money at risk using a chart you don't trust?). Ridiculous idea to try and solve such issues with an "indicator"...

Ninja did already confirm THEY changed the way they treat Daily,Weekly, Monthly data - and they did it for NO good reason, except for employing developers that never ever daytraded in their whole life... This has nothing to do with the datafeed, really...

[Harry]

Ninja did already confirm THEY changed the way they treat Daily,Weekly, Monthly data - and they did it for NO good reason, except for employing developers that never ever daytraded in their whole life... This has nothing to do with the datafeed, really...

Weekly and monthly data is compounded daily data. When daily data is RTH, weekly and monthly data is RTH. When daily data is ETH, weekly and monthly data is ETH as well.

Therefore the only thing that matters is the daily data input.

If you have a look at the help guide here

http://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/en-us/?data_by_provider.htm

the second but the last column specifies the daily bars trading hours for each data provider. Based on this information you should get daily bars with regular trading hours, if you use a datafeed from Continuum or TD Ameritrade.

I have not tested whether it works, as I do not have Continuum nor TD Ameritrade data. But basically the daily data depends on the data provider and the design of the API. NinjaTrader 8 can both retrieve regular trading hours or extended trading hours daily data depending on the data provider.

[RonnyKeller]

@Harry, please do finally read the posts in this thread - or stop interfering with BS

Have a LOOK at the charts attached in the initial post - they are BOTH using datafeed Rithmic, which did NOT make ANY change - the charts are drawn at the same time, and I can go back and forth at will between both settings. Rithmic does NOT provide a special "weekly" or "monthly" pattern - only Kinetick does since they belong completely to Ninja, so Kinetick gives you the same garbage, of course.

After that, DO read the second post in this threat, where an Ninja-employee states:
"For NinjaTrader 7, we used RTH values for daily. When we made the switch to NinjaTrader 8, we saw a greater demand to use ETH values for daily data.". Do you understand, Harry, that this guy says "we made the switch" ???

So, I really don't care how bad your Kinetick-feed is or was. The only thing I see, is, that
a) NT7 was and still is indeed able to draw proper RTH Weekly and RTH Monthly-charts
b) NOTHING changed at my provider's or datafeed's side
c) Ninja confirms that THEY made a switch to ETH-only (software-based, how the bars wil be stitched together)
d) the new software NT8 is obviously incapable to deliver former existing features
e) withdrawing existing features in new software-releases for NO reason and WITHOUT ANY WORKAROUND, is something you just don't - if you're a developer that deserves that title