How to submit bracket stop/profit orders with NT8?

[imphasing]

Based on my research, it doesn't seem like it's possible to have your stop+target+entry orders live on the broker's server.

This is due to the fact that ATM orders (targets, stops) aren't submitted to the broker until after NT detects that the entry has been filled.

This is an issue for me, since I trade via IB which automatically logs off the broker application every day, meaning if I want to place trades overnight, there's a chance I could get my entry filled and the logoff results in no stop/target being transmitted.

I understand that I can place the target and stop orders as OCO orders ahead of time, but this has the undesirable effect of if my entry order is not filled, I have these profit/stop orders that are just sitting there, and they will be filled without my entry having been filled.

Is there no solution for me here? I want my stop and profit orders to sit on the broker servers, so that if IB logs me off or NT randomly crashes, I don't have either stray target/stop orders sitting there, or even worse, entry with no stop/target. I can trivially do this within TWS by just putting a bracket stop/target order on my entry order, then I can go to sleep knowing that if my entry gets filled, I will have a stop and target. Is there no way to submit bracket orders from within NT?

I would hate to have to use TWS for all my order entry, kinda defeats the whole purpose of NT in my opinion.

[NinjaTrader_DrewO]

Hello,

Thanks for posting.

NinjaTrader would need to be running at the time of the Entry Order being filled, or it would not possibly be able to execute the logic to submit the ATM strategy Stop Loss and Profit Target orders.

You could manually submit a Stop and Target order with OCO functionality after submitting your Entry order, depending on who you are connected to and the state of these orders. With many data providers, orders in a state of "Accepted" or "Working" have reached the exchange/brokerage servers and should still function in the event of a connection loss. Many data providers also support OCO functionality on their servers.

I have provided a link below to our forum that goes over where your orders reside.

http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?p=27076#post27076

I have provided a link below to our Help Guide that goes over order state definitions.

http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt7/index.html?order_state_definitions.htm

Be sure to review these links to understand what is to be expected with your account connection/data provider.

To manually submit Profit Target and/or Stop Loss orders with OCO functionality please follow these steps:

1. In the ATM Strategy drop down menu, set it to a value of "none"
2. Right click in the SuperDOM or Chart Trader and enable OCO order placement by selecting the menu "OCO Order"
3. Then place a limit order where you want to exit at a profit
4. Then place a stop order where you want to exit at a loss
5. Then right click again and select the menu "OCO Order" to disable the OCO order placement

[imphasing]

Thanks for getting back to me.

Manually setting the OCO target and stop has the undesirable effect that if my entry order doesn't get filled, I have stray stop/target orders sitting around. Imagine this scenario:

1. place buy stop entry order above the market price, to initiate a long position
2. place OCO stop and target orders
3. go to sleep
4. price drops before filling the entry order, falls through your OCO stop
5. surprise! you're short, good morning!

ATM orders have the undesirable effect or requiring NT to be running and connected to your broker in order to submit stops and targets.

If there's no way for NT to submit bracket orders, I'm afraid NT just doesn't fit my needs and I would be better off just executing through my broker's application where I can submit bracket orders.

[jcrza]

I decided not to renew my NT8 subscription and cancel my Phillip Capital account because of this issue.

[NinjaTrader_DrewO]

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

NinjaTrader would not be able to possibly submit any orders if the platform is disconnected or shut down. You would be able to manually submit bracket orders (A stop and/or target order) or also use ATM strategies to automatically do this if the platform is running and connected.

[jcrza]

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

NinjaTrader would not be able to possibly submit any orders if the platform is disconnected or shut down. You would be able to manually submit bracket orders (A stop and/or target order) or also use ATM strategies to automatically do this if the platform is running and connected.

That's not the issue here at all. You phrase it as if it's some misunderstanding on our part like we want to be able to submit orders to the market while NT8 is closed on our computer or something, which is very silly.

I want to be able to submit an entry order, a stop order to protect that entry, and a profit target to the server all at once so my capital having a stop order protecting it is not hinging on NT8 session stability, which is a scary prospect.

This is not unreasonable to ask for/bring up, and I hope you take this more seriously with future customers, because I won't be one again until you let me submit bracket orders directly to the server, at least for the official NT8 brokerages.

[NinjaTrader_DrewO]

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm happy to forward any suggestions that you may have for the improvement of the platform. Just to clarify and be sure I understand completely, would the change be that all three of these orders would be submitted simultaneously as opposed to submitting the Entry order then submitting the stop and target orders at their own prices individually?

[jcrza]

Hello,
as opposed to submitting the Entry order then submitting the stop and target orders at their own prices individually?

Exactly.

Until today I thought all components of my ATM strategy (stop/limit) were stored on a server to be executed when I submitted my original entry order. It seems absolutely irresponsible to give people the illusion that their position will be protected by stop order when the brokerage isn't even notified of my intention to submit a stop order until some client-side logic is fulfilled, even though I intended to have a stop in place at the time when I selected that ATM strategy and submitted my entry limit order to brokerage servers. It's really misleading and presents an extreme risk.

I'm horrified to find out that my stops were only being stored locally until my position was filled. That is just unacceptable given that NT8 crashes often. I'm amazed this hasn't burned me yet.

There's absolutely no way I'm paying for NT8 any more or using partnered brokerages until this is fixed. Server-side bracket orders please.

[NinjaTrader_DrewO]

Hello,

Thanks for providing that additional information and clarification.

I'm happy to submit this as a Feature Request to the Development Team to be considered as a possible addition to future releases of the platform.

The reason the stop and target are not submitted until the Entry order is filled is so the platform knows what prices to submit the Stop and Target at in case of any slippage. Additionally, if there was a pending Entry order that the market moved past and wound up not filling, the Stop or Target could actually wind up putting one in an unexpected position.

Also, if the stop loss and profit target were manually submitted just after the Entry order was submitted, they too could also be residing on the server (depending on who you are connected to and the state of the orders.) Some servers support OCO on server side as well.

Regardless, I can absolutely see merit in having the option to use this either way and will submit the feature request.

[aligator]

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm happy to forward any suggestions that you may have for the improvement of the platform. Just to clarify and be sure I understand completely, would the change be that all three of these orders would be submitted simultaneously as opposed to submitting the Entry order then submitting the stop and target orders at their own prices individually?

Yes, DrewO. That is exactly the case and is a request that has been supposedly tracked for years and still ignored. NT is perhaps one of few if not the only one that will not allow one click bracket orders.

[jcrza]

The reason given (slippage) does make sense, but it seems like many other brokerages/platforms have solved this problem. I don't know if they just assume no slippage or somehow have the server calculate the stop order as an offset of fill price, but once this feature is in NT8 I will absolutely renew my subscription.

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Thanks for the feedback. We are tracking this internally as SFT-1091.

[imphasing]

Just wanted to chime in that I too will totally be repurchasing ninjatrader as soon as bracket orders are supported. NT is definitely the best execution platform I've used, however the lack of bracket orders just doesn't support my style of trading. Please get this implemented, I want to give you guys money

[NinjaTrader_Ray]

Yes, DrewO. That is exactly the case and is a request that has been supposedly tracked for years and still ignored. NT is perhaps one of few if not the only one that will not allow one click bracket orders.

Saying that this is ignored is inaccurate. Please remember that the NinjaTrader trading platform is a 3rd party client side application that integrates to various brokerages through API's. The bulk of our customer base uses technology where pre-defined server side brackets are not supported. Point is, we are unable to provide this if our brokerage technology partner can't provide this. That being said, we are addressing this ourselves with server side ATM strategies that we intend to release in the coming future. No ETA on this at this time. For additional clarification, working stop and target orders are resting at the exchange. It is the intent to submit these orders that currently rest client side.

[jcrza]

It is the intent to submit these orders that currently rest client side.

So then what we said is accurate. Our entry order is on the server, but our intent to protect that entry with a stop and limit is client side. This is obviously a bad choice. Looking forward to it not being that way in the future.