Make chart refresh rate faster than 250ms possible

[explorer101]

The more i read what is being shared in these posts it is exactly what i have observed and experienced lately in these more volatile markets - i like the trading timeframe idea efficiency and the need to be able to set this refresh (if how implemented) on a chart basis. I am seeing orders closed, profits taken - stops taken BEFORE my chart bars have gotten there - so is unnerving to say the least.
I think we have come to expect denial and elaborate rationalizations over the years to these situations - desperate to save the 'brand' - they themselves have manifested this - they have ignored the supportive community - for which they would not exist without; yet they treat with a somewhat patronising disdain almost as if they know better - when we all know they are NOT traders but as bruce above says they are coders trying to implement clumsily the ideas of real traders; without a real understanding of how the markets actually operate.

I seriously dont want to hear about NT9 and is folly or foolish to believe or hope finally this will all be resolved in the next major version ??? that is fools gold - they should fix this NOW and not drag this out wasting users LIVES by promising these major glitches to be resolved in a future Major NT9 release - loaded with features that most serious traders dont even use - spend the effort and resource on the real trading process and issues and logistics and leave the fluff you believe that sells your license/lease to the side for now - please - more respect would be garnered from users if you actually are honest about this sort of issue and commit to fixing

I will in the meantime now research alternative platforms that will meet my needs now and in future.

[otislauwaert]

Hello,

This delay issue is very important to solve.
When I have a buy order triggered by the Ask on the chart it will get filled by the Ask in the T&S causing 1 tick "slippage" on the chart because it's not the same as in the T&S.
I have recorded a video of a sell example and the difference happens within the same second, but it's enough to cause that 1 tick "slippage".
Scroll through the timebar slowly to see it happening at the 7th second of this video --> https://youtu.be/XOsNUVdjqmw

[seanhughes16]

In the age of HFT any timeframe longer than 30ms means your a dinosaur. Please add another vote for me, a lifetime license holder.

[smalltrader35]

How many +1 votes are needed for NT to implement what the traders on this thread are asking for 'Adjustable Chart Refresh Rate' less than 250ms? This is my 2nd post in this thread and I do NOT post here regularly at all so that speaks volumes as to how seriously I personally view this non acceptable chart refresh rate of 250ms. I am currently making the switch to Sierra and I am taking my own group of traders with me. The knock on effect here for NT is that just like me, all traders know other traders and when we chat about platforms within our groups we WILL NOT recommend NT as a professional level platform to any trader coming into our group further down the line. This is potential lost revenue to NT. If you do the simple math here, Take all the +1 votes for the chart adjustable chart refresh rate, multiple that by * 5 (Every Trader knows at least 5 other traders) that's lost potential revenue of +1 votes * 5 monthly NT subscribers or +1 votes * 5 potential lifetime subscribers. This is not to mention the potential loss of broker commissions to NT Brokerage should the current license holders trade directly with NT Brokerage. Either NT do NOT need this extra revenue or do NOT have the skilled people with their company to implement what their clientele requires. This a simple business 101, When you do NOT give your clients what they require they take their business elsewhere and with any business if you keep loosing your customer base you will eventually loose your business, if not today 5-10 years down the road, just look at the history of the high street stores who laughed at amazon when they first launched, these high street stores refused to look to the future and adjust their business model to suit their clients requirements and while amazon grew to the company it is today by giving their customers what they want the other high street chains went to the wall by their pure ignorance and refusal to adapt to a changing market. The futures markets is just like the high street having greatly changed over the past 10 years and will greatly change once again going forward within the next 10 years. Latency, Speed, Stability should be the core of NT business model but with chart refresh rates of 250 ms and NT not making available connections to Europe/Asia for their NT7 clients how on earth do you guys expect to be around in 10 years time when your competitors are giving their clients what they want and implementing changes to their own software as per customer requirements while at the same time your own loyal customer base have to plead and ask nicely just to try get the very basic of what any trading platform should be, Latency Speed Stability.
How can any trader trade will 'Delayed Quotes' on a chart that refreshes 250ms? How can any NT trader compete against other traders around the globe when their latency to execution in Europe is 9ms versus 120ms in the states using Rithmic Europe versus Rithmic US (Just an example of Latency) Europe has a huge market of traders but why would a European trader even use NT when they know NT8 has a chart refresh rate of 250ms but a gateway to Europe while at the same time NT7 which has an adjustable chart refresh rate down to 0 if the client requires has NO gateway to Europe for execution. NT needs to read that last portion and see how unprofessional it is to offer this to their customers especially their loyal 5+10 years old customers who have stood by NT over the years hoping that they would finally give their customers what they require. All I can say is shame on NT.

[hurleydood]

+1 for me. We should be able to refresh the chart on every tick.

[pjsmith]

Every tick is a bit stupid, but , +1 for me too, for the general idea of chart bar refresh more than every 250ms, anyway, though I've already posted about this in other threads too. The issue I think is that because of the way NT8 is designed (in a performance constraining way as far as I can understand), it might not be as easy as we think to do, without screwing up the performance of the rest of the platform even more.

For someone who trades price action, and yes, I know 'the brain cannot comprehend movement faster than 250ms etc., etc', but there is a feel you get from a flicking up and down across small ranges that you completely loose in NT8. One only has to watch a decent DOM (not the NT8 one, because that is u/s), to see this.

I too have suffered the orders filling etc before the bars have even gotten there in periods of high volatility, and DOM's being 10 pts out of sync with the chart bars. Yes, if I remove all indicators and have plain bars and no other charts, this doesn't happen, but in my opinion, and I've a feeling this will fall on deaf ears, so it will be my last comment on the matter

TBH, I have made improvements in this area by optimising indicators and removing things, but sometimes, I'm accepting reduced functionality, just to try and maintain performance.

NT need to URGENTLY build in 2 improvements to the platform (and stop people bugging them about performance issues that are their own!).

1, A task manager for NT8. I've mentioned this to support more than once. This would be a MASSIVE aid to ninjatrader support themselves because it would immediately diagnose any of the poorly performing indicators users use. Moreover, it would allow users to identify the issues for themselves and get rid of the extremely annoying responses from NT support that you 'delete your work-space, start with just a chart, and add indicators 1 by one, testing each one for days to see when the issue occurs', type responses. You try doing that over 8 monitors/30 charts and tell me you won't be p*ssed... I was dismayed when told they have no tools to help diagnose performance issues.

The above is likely to allow users to resolve their own issues in many cases. Adding a small piece of time profiling code before and after where the indicators etc. are called is not IMO (developer) to be that hard. Many other apps include similar functionality, mainly for the reasons stated above. Just look at 'Chrome' for a common example.

2, work on performance and stability, period. No new features. Implement crash reporting so you can see where users are suffering common issues. Just stop the platform crashing and freezing. Once you've done that, add new stuff. At the moment, it feels like you are on a drive to install new bells and whistles to attract new users. Some of those are useful, but many of your old users are looking for alternatives because of all the instability they encounter.

Just give us the tools to stop bugging you and let us ID the issues ourselves! Your lives will be a hell of a lot easier, the product will have a better rep because people are not blaming it for things it's not responsible for, and you can concentrate on the genuine issues, making it faster and more stable.I don't get paid for providing this feedback, nor for the 'professional' testing of your releases I do (30 years dev experience). I've reported many real bugs to NT over the years. Many I have discovered in just a few hours of testing of a new release.

Done.

[James108]

Amen pjsmth thanks for taking the time to write this

[brucerobinson]

pjsmith - re: your entire post, to borrow from the lyrics of the rock legend that is Meatloaf, 'you took the words right out of my mouth' (FTAOD for other dear readers, the next line in the verse not applicable though).

Always looking to extract the positive - re: your 1, I am led to believe there is something along the lines you suggest in 8. IIRC I was directed toward a tool that identifies which script is slowing things down.
My recollection is vague, but on a Ticket I'm sure PatrickG pointed me to it. The issue in question was already resolved so I didn't pay much attention and categorised it as 'nice to know info, but I shouldn't need/don't expect to have to use it to de-bug your software, given my strategy purposefully is not to use third-party script. When there's a problem I'll happily convey it best I can but it is yours to find and fix'.
If I'm correct & you're not aware of it, you might want to ask.
Or perhaps these are just figments of my imagination.
Kind regards,

[hurleydood]

pjsmith It's a myth that the human eye can only see at 4 frames per second. People can react to information up to 1000 frames per second. See this article https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20749876977

[pjsmith]

pjsmith It's a myth that the human eye can only see at 4 frames per second. People can react to information up to 1000 frames per second. See this article https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20749876977

I'd agree. I know mine can. But, to be clear, I didn't say you could not see it, just quoted someone else (a ninja-trader related vendor) saying "the brain cannot comprehend movement faster than 250ms". To me, that really is not true, but I'd agree most people cannot make a decision and take action within that time frame (or I can't). I've done a little research, and testing on this. Whilst I can very clearly comprehend that lots of wiggles up and down in a time frame of 250 ms or less means something to me, my time to react on it, on average, is around 260ms!

But, it's an argument I've seen quoted by others related to Ninjatrader, so to be clear - I'm not expecting people to act within these time-frames. What is important is that, like a filtered/unfiltered tick feed, if you just see the end result as one move, you loose the feel off 'how you got there', and to me, that makes a lot of difference in the time frames I trade on.

[hurleydood]

pjsmith It seems that a 250ms delay is a filter. Here is the difference between update on every tick vs ever 250ms. https://youtu.be/17koGaakcWw

[pjsmith]

pjsmith It seems that a 250ms delay is a filter. Here is the difference between update on every tick vs ever 250ms. https://youtu.be/17koGaakcWw

Errr, that's the sort of difference in action I'm talking about, and it's a very nice way to demonstrate it, but I'm a little confused. There is no way I am aware of to change the chart update interval, so how did you get your chart to update on each tick?! As far as I knew, this was just pegged internally (unlike nt7 and other platforms where you can set it). Please tell!

[eDanny]

Updating on every tick would be very bad in a fast market. I think it would be useful to allow a refresh time interval input but also in conjunction with another boolean parameter. This would be to enable updates on price change. So if a price change occurs at 125 milliseconds the chart would update visually and also on the timer. These settings could work together.

[hurleydood]

eDanny What do you consider a fast market? Here is the difference between update on every tick vs every 250ms at the 4PM market close, recorded at 60fps. https://youtu.be/i6l7MnLryIo

[eDanny]

A fast market, in this case, is when your charts cannot keep up with the market. Your test does not show a fast market with multiple charts with many indicators, some of which may be CPU intensive. Try your almost bare charts during FOMC or earnings reports, etc.