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Switch brokers and buy Ninja Trader or not? Looking for advice please.

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    Switch brokers and buy Ninja Trader or not? Looking for advice please.

    Hi all.

    I have some questions for you experienced Ninja trader lifetime customers and micro futures/futures [MES] traders that I'm hoping you guys will share you experience with.


    I'm a somewhat experienced trader that's traded small cap stocks, large cap stocks, large cap options, and FOREX part time over the past 3 years.

    I am now looking into trading micro futures (MES) with ninja trader but I'm not sure it's worth it because of all the costs.


    I currently use another broker and platform that has free stock shares trading and free FOREX trading, no platform fees, no data fees.


    However, their micro futures margin requirement is much higher than ninja trader's which is why I'm considering ninja trader but I don't know if it's worth all the extra expense?


    I'm at a point in my trading where I want to focus on one thing and master it.


    What's preventing me from moving forward with micro futures and ninja trader are all the extra fees compared to my other broker :

    Ninja trader platform, lifetime $1,100.
    Data fees and commission fees.

    VS.

    No platform fees, no commission, no data fees but I can't properly trade micro futures due to the much larger margin requirements.

    I scale into position and the other broker's high margin requirements would be to much money for me to trade my style properly.

    So I'm trying to decide what trading to focus on?

    Maybe I should just focus on trading FOREX with no fees or just trade options on the SPY instead of trading MES/Futures?


    I've been demoing MES on Ninja Trader for about 2 weeks and doing well (remember I'm an experienced trader in other asset classes).


    Questions :


    Are your real money MES fills the same as Ninja Trader DEMO fills or is there slippage?
    If there is slippage how often and how much in ticks/points?

    I've been mostly scalping a point or two here and there on MES.
    Since I've never traded MES real money I don't know how the fills are and I'm wondering if that's realistic?



    A question for all of you that have bought the lifetime license for Ninja Trader :

    Do you honestly feel it was worth it and why?

    If you could trade FOREX for free would you still of bought the lifetime Ninja license and pay commission and data fees?

    Why?

    Also, I don't see a news feed in ninja trader?
    My other broker has free news...
    Am I missing the news feed in ninja trader?



    I have some other concerns but for now those are the most important to me.

    Thank you for taking the time to answer.


    I hope my honest questions don't upset anyone.

    I know other traders that feel the same as I do and to them it's not making sense.
    Last edited by iTrade777; 05-17-2020, 01:06 AM.

    #2
    Hello iTrade777,

    Thank you for your post.

    Are your real money MES fills the same as Ninja Trader DEMO fills or is there slippage?
    If there is slippage how often and how much in ticks/points?

    I've been mostly scalping a point or two here and there on MES.
    Since I've never traded MES real money I don't know how the fills are and I'm wondering if that's realistic?
    NinjaTrader's simulation engine uses a scientific approach to determine fill probability by including a number of variables including: ask/bid volume, trade volume, time (to simulate order queue position), and random time delays for switching between order states. That being said, it is not possible to perfectly simulate order execution in a live-trading environment and it is possible that slippage could occur based on a number of market conditions and factors. You can learn more about NinjaTrader's simulation engine at the link below:
    If you could trade FOREX for free would you still of bought the lifetime Ninja license and pay commission and data fees?
    Futures trading offers a few distinct differences versus trading spot forex. For example, your orders are executed on a centralized exchange based on the availability of contracts from other buyers and sellers. In the spot forex market, by contrast, your broker is often taking the other side of your trades. The commission fee for spot forex trading is also a fixed fee rather than trading against a spread, which can vary based on market conditions.

    Also, I don't see a news feed in ninja trader?
    My other broker has free news...
    Am I missing the news feed in ninja trader?
    NinjaTrader has a News window, but the data is only available from a handful of third-party data providers. You can find more information about the News window at the link below:Let me know if I may be of further assistance.
    Christopher D.NinjaTrader Customer Service

    Comment


      #3
      Hi and thanks ChristopherD for your help, I do have more questions and concerns :

      What data provider does Ninja trader user for charting MES ?

      I will have to double check my chart settings but it seems Ninja Trader charts are different than my current broker's charts and that makes a big difference.

      The overall pattern is the similar but not the same and some individual candles are different and the trade setup is different.

      One example is on my current broker MES was clearly making a distinct double top with lower high.

      On Ninja trader there was a double top but the lower high not very distinct seemingly due to the different way the candles are charted.

      I didn't trade it because the setup and move didn't look substantial.

      At the time I did not have my other broker's platform open but if I did and I was using it to trade MES I would of certainly traded that breakdown.


      The charting makes a huge difference on how it's traded.

      Why are NInja Trader's charts looking very different?

      Last edited by iTrade777; 05-19-2020, 03:58 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        I wanted to add, it looks like my current broker's charts give more accurate breakouts and to me it's more psychologically correct.


        Look at each candle, candle by candle and pretend you're trading them...

        Is there a Ninja Trader chart setting I'm missing that can make the charts look better?


        A side note, this forum software has a bug in it.
        If you look back and forth at my two images comparing them, after about the 6th time it stops working.
        Using FireFox on Mac.
        Last edited by iTrade777; 05-19-2020, 03:46 PM.

        Comment


          #5
          Hello,

          Thank you for the reply.

          There are many reasons why a chart on our platform will differ from another platform.

          Unfortunately we would be unable to pinpoint exactly which reason cause this particular discrepancy without more information about how the other broker populates their bars.

          The following link includes some details about why bars may vary when using different data providers:

          https://ninjatrader.com/support/help...ldingChartBars

          Please let us know if we may be of any further assistance.

          Melissa J.NinjaTrader Customer Service

          Comment


            #6
            Sounds a bit wacky to me.

            It also says that your historical data can look different than your real time data.
            Hmmm...

            Maybe you guys are using the wrong kind of socket to transfer data?
            For example a UDP socket will drop packets while a TCPsocket won't, at least typically won't.


            On the current and other platforms I've used I believe the real time data and playback historical are identical.
            I've never noticed a difference in charts between my real time data and the playback and if there are any they are tiny differences which never effected my trading.


            So far I like Ninja Trader but I think you guys are charging way to much for it.
            It doesn't make sense to pay $1,100 for it and have to then pay data fees, commission on trades and also possibly pay for news?

            There are other brokers that offer free trading software/platform, free commissions and free news.


            Let's look at this from different trader point of views :

            Experienced traders VS. New Traders :


            Experienced traders are already rooted in their trading platform and trading vehicles.
            They have no need to switch from what they know and are comfortable with to Ninja Trader so they aren't likely to pay $1,100 just for software.


            Many new traders who may be interested in Ninja Trader won't want to pay $1,100 for the software when they know other software is free to use and that $1,100 can be used for trading somewhere else.


            I am not a new trader but I've yet to focus only on one thing to trade.
            I'm thinking of focusing on MES using Ninja Trader but because Ninja trader is so expensive it really doesn't make sense to me.

            Instead of buying Ninja for $1,100 and then have to pay data fees and commission, I can use that $1,100 to day trade SPY calls and puts with no PDT. With my current broker where there aren't any platform fees nor data fees, nor news fees and the commission for options are really cheap.
            SPY and MES are very similar and trades the same in many cases.

            The difference is that I'm currently mostly a scalper and scalping with [SPY] options is harder than scalping MES because sometimes moves are so small or fast that the options don't reflect the move whereas shares/contracts obviously would reflect the move.

            But since I've never scalped MES real money I don't know if my demo scalp fills are realistic or not so I don't know my scalping techniques would even get filled on MES.


            The ONLY reason why I'm considering focusing on MES and the only reason I'm thinking about using Ninja trader is the high leverage / low margin requirements.
            But I can get this in FOREX without having to pay $1,100 for a platform or trade options like mentioned. Options are highly leveraged.


            The reasons why I may not make the purchase so far are :

            1. The very high cost of software. $1,100 doesn't make sense.

            2. The charts are looking wacky compared to my other broker's charts which I've also compared (at least with equities) to other brokers and they match each other but Ninja's don't match which means the trader is at a disadvantage in my opinion as the chart psychology is wrong.

            3. Stuck having to pay data fees, commission, and possibly an extra news fee?
            Ninja trader really doesn't have free news?
            Even free platforms have free news...


            4. Non-Transferable license. I read that if I buy the lifetime license and I end up not using it, I cannot sell it to someone else?
            That's a bit too controlling.


            This is very bad form and bad juju for customers.

            I'm sure there's a lot of upset customers that feel taken advantage of.
            If Ninja trader were smart they'd allow the transfer and charge a reasonable transfer fee of say, $50 or $100.
            This is also losing Ninja Trader money because they'd rather have a dead platform that nobody uses anymore than make money on commission from a transferred license to which a new trader will trade the product.


            Earlier in the thread I asked if anyone is happy to buy Ninja Trader VS. using other [free] platforms and so far not a single person has replied...



            I can't think of another product that a person purchases and isn't allowed to sell to someone else even though it's still as usable as the day it was purchased...?


            If I buy a car can I sell it to someone else later?
            Yes.

            If I buy clothes, can I sell them to someone else later?
            Yes.

            If I buy a computer, can I later sell that computer to someone else?
            Yes.

            If I buy a book, can I later sell that book to someone else?
            Yes.

            It's hard for me to think of a product that I could purchase or purchase the rights to use for life but not resell should I want to.
            Even in Real Estate contracts are often transferable.

            Even burial plots are transferable.


            5. I have no way of knowing if my demo scalping MES will work real money with Ninja Trader.




            To iterate, my opinion so far is that there's nothing special about the software and even less so because the charts aren't accurate to other broker charts/the trading charting psychology is wrong in my opinion.

            The ONLY reason I'd consider buying is because of the great leverage and low margin required for micro futures.
            Other than that I'd definitely say no way to buying it because there's no point.



            Can ANYONE that's purchased the lifetime Ninja Trader license and is glad they did so please share why they are happy?


            Just to let Ninja Trader company know, I'm not the only trader that feels this way. I know at least several other traders looking at Ninja Trader because of the margin on micro futures but then they see the $1,100 software price and they won't even give it a chance. They already trade with other brokers who have no such fees so paying a high cost just for software doesn't make sense. I don't think Ninja Trader folk realize how many other brokers have free or lower cost software to use.

            Maybe you guys would offer a significant sale/discount?


            What will you guys do if other brokers lower their intraday micro futures requirement like you have?
            You won't be selling any Ninja Trader software copies at $1,100 or anywhere near that because people will use the other brokers and their free or much lower cost software to trade.

            If you guys were smart you'd probably drastically drop the price now to lock in traders so you make money from their commissions over time because things in business often change and if you guys don't adapt you'll go the way of the dinosaurs.

            The only reason you guys get some sales at $1,100 is because of your low margin requirements unlike anyone else.
            Once others start doing this for micro futures you won't have any edge on the competition.


            I'm surprised there isn't a channel on the forum for traders to share their winning trade setups?
            You guys make money from trading commissions.
            The better your traders do, the more money you make.
            I'd think you'd be teaching traders how to trade or at least provide a trading channel on the forum so your many users can help each other out.
            Or is there something like this already and I'm unaware because I'm new here?


            For now I guess I'll keep trying to demo with Ninja Trader but I'll have to focus more on larger moves and not just scalps that way I'll know the real money will get filled should I decide to buy it.


            Anyway thanks for hearing my thoughts on these issues.




            Last edited by iTrade777; 05-19-2020, 05:21 PM.

            Comment


              #7
              I'll concur that I'm following this thread because I am in a similar situation. Evaluating NT right now and trying to convince myself that it's worth it to purchase a license.

              Here is what I have come up with so far. I believe we are in similar situations.

              As an aside, while I agree with most of what has been said and I believe these to be valid points, I will say that outside of the more retail platforms such as TOS, Tradestation (now), eTrade, etc.....most of the futures oriented platforms all chart for data and in fact data subscriptions are fairly standard. After moving away from TOS, I was frankly astounded by the idea of paying for data until I started to look further into this issue and found out that TOS and the other platforms that give free data show you data in packets as opposed to the real tick by tick data which is more necessary for futures trading. This will in turn drastically alter the charts (depending on the time frame). In addition to this, TOS especially charges much higher commissions on futures trading which likely makes up for the free data.

              So while I'm definitely following this thread, I just wanted to add that the specific concern about paying for data is not unique to NT.

              Comment


                #8
                Hi Grayfrog.

                Yes we are in similar situations.

                Thanks for your input on the subject.

                I am aware that many other platforms charge for data but the thing is, as a trader I don't have to trade futures so I don't have to pay those fees if I decide to trade other assets.
                You may feel the same.


                Regarding AMTD's high margin.
                Not many know this but if you have an account of >=$15k you can intraday trade many futures (like MES) for 50% margin.
                That's still far more expensive than Ninja Trader margin but it's a little more desirable.


                As a trader I think about my future and time zone is important to me.

                In several years I may move to Hawaii and Hawaii has a horrible timezone for trading U.S. equities. For example, here on the west coast the stock market opens at 6:30AM. Doing any sort of pre-market analysis and you're up at least by 6AM. Hawaii being 3 hours earlier means an equities trader would be up at 3AM... Not something I'd want to do. So by timezone FOREX and Futures look better to me so my focus is less on equities and more on FOREX or Futures.
                So far to me the main difference between trading FOREX and Futures are the margin and the fees.
                I can trade FOREX for 100% free but I don't get great margin.
                Or I can trade Futures using Ninja trader and have to pay a lot do to so but I'd get great margin although I don't know if my scalping would work real money MES...

                I'm still on the fence whether to buy the Ninja lifetime license or not.

                To me, if they charged a reasonable fee like $200 lifetime, I'd buy it today.
                But $1,100 for something I have to pay additional fees for and may not even use and I can't transfer it is hard to swallow.


                It's also discouraging knowing that not a single lifetime purchaser has jumped in this thread saying it was a good buy and they're happy they bought it.
                I was expecting to see at least a few dozen traders saying it's great, go for it...


                --------------------

                Regarding your comments about TOS data:

                I believe your thoughts about TOS data are incorrect.

                All computer data is communicated through a code construct called a 'socket'.
                There are different types of sockets (TCP, UDP, HTTP, etc.), each using a different protocol.
                Different protocols are good for different types of data and use.
                For example, UDP sockets transfer data fast and are often used for streaming data in real time gaming. The problem with UDP is that the data packets can get lost in the internet path. So losing packets is common.

                Conversely TCPsockets are slower but much more reliable and these are often used for when getting the data exactly correct is important, for example for file transferring.

                I don't know what protocols are used in streaming trading data.
                I'd guess UDP or something similar where speed is most important.

                All data is travelled in the form of packets.

                So when you heard that TOS's data is travelled in packets you may have misunderstood that to mean not streamed, or not tick by tick.


                I'm curious to know the Ninja Trader data chain and see if it's different than TOS's data chain.


                I believe TOS's data chain is like this :

                Exchange > AMTD Servers > TOS.

                Because AMTD has hundreds of thousands or millions of clients, they have to use their servers to redistribute the data OR they'd likely charge fees for each client directly connecting to the exchange. Or they'd let the client pay the exchange directly for the data.


                Does Ninja Trader client software get the data directly from the exchange?

                Exchange > Ninja Trader client software.

                If so then there could be a slight speed advantage over TOS (and I've known TOS level 2 to be slightly delayed) as there is no broker server distributing the data.

                If Ninja Trader has a similar data chain to AMTD/TOS like:

                Exchange > Ninja Trader Servers > Ninja Trader Client software

                Then it's probably just as 'delayed' as AMTD's data (albeit TOS runs at a snails pace VS. Ninja Trader runs much faster so the user experience / perception could be different).
                TOS is horribly written spaghetti code and it's written in the wrong language:Java.
                Java is not a speedy language and I believe they used it to make TOS cross platform.
                TOS is slow bloatware that they can hardly maintain.

                I assume Ninja Trader is written in some form of C and it is of course much smaller, more efficient and quicker.

                Can anyone from Ninja Trader tell us what the data chain is?

                Thanks.
                Last edited by iTrade777; 05-21-2020, 05:32 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  iTrade777,

                  Again, I agree with a lot of what you have said although and I think your questions are good but I do want to temper expectations and maybe even help you a bit since I've spent the last 6-9 months trying to move away from TOS/Tradestation. If my information helps, great. If you feel it is a waste of your time, no worries.

                  Here is my background. I am not a finance person, nor a computer person. I am a doc that trades nearly full time and also works clinically full time. I work almost exclusively overnights so when I am trading futures, I trade fairly consistently in the overnight sessions. I also live in Southern California and in fact work in Hawaii 1-2 times per month so I am very familiar with the overall situation you are posing. In terms of my trading, my volumes are fairly high. At least high enough for TOS to give me $0.35/contract options trades with no ticket for the last couple years. I'd say I generate probably around 25-50K of commission for them every year although the last year has been lighter as I've moved to trying out other platforms.

                  Here is the difference in the data that I believe you are missing. Again, take everything I'm putting out there with a grain of salt but as someone who has had all these basic questions and frustrations after leaving TOS I totally get it.

                  I am NOT a computer person and so many of the questions you are posing are completely over my head but again, I believe you are not understanding the data issue correctly. It is NOT about what socket is being used. It is about how the data is fed. Market data comes either unfiltered or aggregated.

                  There are high quality data feeds such as IQFeed, CQG, Rithmic, Kinetic (they actually get their data from IQ), BarChart, eSignal, Sierra Chart Denali and the Sierra Chart real time exchange among others. High quality data feeds do NOT filter data. You get true tick by tick data so every transaction that happens in the market is sent to your platform or however you receive your data on your end. These feeds are ALL subscription model feeds. Some of these feeds are more expensive than others but depending on exactly what exchanges you want to trade, if you are doing Level II data and subscribing to the "CME bundle" then you are probably looking at around $100/month in data feeds.

                  On the other end you have free or low cost data. These are data feeds from Interactive brokers (IB), TD ameritrade/TOS. I believe that Tradestation and eTrade are in this category as well but I don't know this for sure. These data feeds are aggregated feeds. This has nothing to do with the socket but instead on how they are sending out data. Whereas high quality data feeds are tick level data such that every single transaction is being sent to you, aggregated data feeds such as TOS send data in aggregate. Circular yes, but the point is that they send an aggregate of the transactions that happen every (typically) 250ms.

                  And this is the nuance. If you are trading 1-2 minute charts or even higher, then it probably doesn't matter. If you are DOM trading it most likely definitely matters because you aren't getting the true order flow data.

                  Again, maybe someone with more computer specific knowledge can chime in but I don't believe this has anything to do with the socket being used. It has to do with how the data is being treated. Is it tick level or is it filtered/aggregated data.

                  In terms of platforms here is where TOS has created a very artificial environment for the retail trader. TOS is a very high quality professional platform and everything is free. It creates an artificial sense of reality for retail traders.

                  Most of the platforms that are "broker neutral" (NinjaTrader walks a very gray area on this one) require either a platform license fee or a subscription fee in addition to the data fees. That is how they are making money for the product they are offering. NinjaTrader is trying to have the best of both worlds and so they are walking gray area for sure and I haven't been impressed so far in how they are navigating this gray area from my outside perspective. The range of monthly platform fees is really wide. Some of these platforms that are considered professional platforms can run you $200 per month on upwards. Some other platforms are in the $50/month range and some are given to you for free from your futures broker. Again, very very wide range.

                  So here is my thought on this. You have to decide how much you want to spend for monthly fees. As with everything in life, you get what you pay for. If you want high quality, unfiltered data you are gonna have to pay for it. Maybe look into data from Rithmic or CQG. I haven't looked into these feeds myself much but they are very well regarded and I believe much less expensive. I think you still have to pay the exchange fees for the data though. This is a pass thru fee. Again, I'm not entirely sure on this one. Maybe someone can help out. IQFeed, Kinetic, BarChart, Sierra etc these are all around 100-200 per month for market data.

                  I'm running out of time before work so I'll have to end it there but ultimately, I agree with a lot of your questions. I believe that I'm still on the fence about NinjaTrader because they are walking a very gray area as they become a platform, data vendor and broker......



                  Comment


                    #10
                    @Grayfrog

                    Right on!
                    Thank you for your in depth explanation of the two different data types. I was unaware.
                    Now it makes more sense.

                    Unfiltered data VS. Aggregated data.
                    I now have the question if the aggregated data is missing any data or if it's just sent as a larger packet/package at the expense of a little delay in ms?

                    If it still has all of the exact data just sent as a larger chunk then I'd think the charts would still look the same as the unfiltered chart minus any dropped packets.

                    However for day traders trading the tape I agree this could make a difference as you aren't getting the real time flow or feel of the actual orders and your level 2 will be off. I look at time and sales flow but mostly I use the chart candle speed flow. I don't use level 2 much at all anymore.

                    You are correct I don't think the socket type would matter much in this case.
                    It has to do with the data and how it's packaged.

                    I am wondering if you are DOM trading if your orders will still get filled the same even if you aren't seeing the same exact information?
                    Meaning if a broker has the aggregate data feed you might be missing seeing certain orders but when the broker sends your order to the exchange or clearing firm if those unseen orders (by you) exist I'd think you'd still get filled.

                    In other words data provider <> the Market or order filler.

                    Always more to learn, lol.

                    Please let me know what your decision is about buying Ninja Trader.
                    I'm very curious.

                    I am thinking about trying the free version.

                    Have you tried the free version?

                    PS.
                    Which is your favorite island in Hawaii?
                    I've only been to Oahu and Kauai.
                    I'm thinking of maybe 'retiring' there.
                    I've never been to Maui but I hear great things about it.

                    If you were to move to Hawaii which island would you move to, what location and why?


                    Thanks.
                    Last edited by iTrade777; 05-21-2020, 11:11 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by iTrade777 View Post
                      @Grayfrog

                      I am wondering if you are DOM trading if your orders will still get filled the same even if you aren't seeing the same exact information?
                      Meaning if a broker has the aggregate data feed you might be missing seeing certain orders but when the broker sends your order to the exchange or clearing firm if those unseen orders (by you) exist I'd think you'd still get filled.
                      You will not. Raw data provides the data as it comes in: snapshot data come in at fixed intervals, which is when the computer will process it. If your exit/protective orders are directly triggered by your computer, you automatically suffer all the slippage of the delayed data.

                      I stopped trading all futures on TOS when one day I traded the exact same /CL contract with the exact same prices on TOS and NT. I was stopped out. I suffered a 9-tick (!!) slippage on TOS, and the more or less standard 1-tick slippage on NT. I looked at execution times, and, it was clear that the difference was in the arrival times of the driving data. I cannot go into the reason why I made what looks like such asinine simultaneous trades, but there was a method to the madness.

                      Bottom line, if you are going to day-trade, let alone scalp, raw data is absolutely de rigueur: snapshot data is entirely useless for the purpose. Since the demise of Open e-Cry, there is no such thing as a free raw data feed. If you must daytrade with any semblance of rationality, you will have to pay for data.

                      I use NT because it is the only platform that I found that lets me trade the way that I do with real-time, statistical, running bar by bar, optimization. For me, the ability to determine and create methods to drive my analysis means that NT has been worth the cost. Then again, I am a total useless dud at scalping, so YMMV.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hi iTrade777 and grayfrog,
                        I couldn't agree more to the post from koganam as to market data.
                        I wouldn't dare to trade with snapshot data. And I wouldn't assume that cheap market data connections are always stable.
                        At best, cheap implies to get filtered content, at worst, no data at all when it matters most. By contrast, high quality data providers give you a much better stream even when volatility is high. Some of them have a special "CME Waiver Program" for non-professionals which might help you to reduce the fix costs of doing business.
                        I myself consider pricing for a NinjaTrader Multi-Broker Lifetime License fair. If you are not yet sure, if Ninja is the right choice for you, you could perhaps check if you can get a special offer allowing you to start renting the software and get some sort of credit on a later upgrade to a license purchase. If you are not yet certain about the platform itself, I would in doubt choose a data provider compatible with other pieces of software so that you can swap should you not wish to stay with Ninja.
                        NT-Roland

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Good conversation here.

                          I am not an expert but here are my thoughts :

                          I am not sure if you are correct:

                          There is a difference between receiving market data and sending order data.
                          I believe there is a difference between what you see (snapshot) and how your order executes (raw market data).

                          For example let's talk stocks here:

                          First, let's say your broker is providing you snapshot data of ticker $XYZ showing a bid / ask of $10.00 to $10.25.

                          Let's say the real raw data has price fluctuating between $10.00 ~ $10.25 but you don't see it.

                          I believe if you place an order to buy $XYZ @$10.24 if the real market is there you will get filled regardless of the provided snapshot data only showing $10.25.

                          Data Quotes <> The real market/Order Data.

                          The reason why I believe this (and maybe I'm wrong) is because when you place your order it goes to the real market, regardless of what you're being shown with the limited snapshot data.

                          Hence your order shows up on Level 2 the real market, and other traders actually see it and are influenced by it. You can join the bid/ask market depth, the real market.

                          Your order does not secretly just sit on your computer doing nothing waiting until price hits it and then your client software executes the trade.

                          If you think that, then how do you explain your orders being filled when your computer isn't even on?

                          You can set your orders up and then disconnect and if market hits, you're filled.
                          Your orders typically live on the broker's order servers.
                          Slippage varies per broker probably mostly due to their order chain (if they first try to match the order internally before sending it to the market AMTD does this with equities ,not sure about other asset classes) and order server efficiency.
                          TOS has extremely overloaded servers due to the massive number of clients and things got worse when they recently went commission free getting many more new clients further overloading their servers.

                          I don't know the exact chain of order flow and I could be wrong but this makes sense to me at least how some brokers do it.


                          Another example of how client market snapshot data has no effect on order execution.
                          Let's say you want to buy $XYZ @ $10.00 and you don't even have a computer or any quotes. You simply call your broker and tell them buy $XYZ @$10.00.
                          If your orders were dependent on you receiving market data you'd never get filled in this scenario.


                          AMTD/TOS is notorious for bad fills, slow fills / slippage but it might not have anything to do with client provided snapshot data.
                          From what I remember being told by them is that they do first try to match the order in their own order system before it goes out. Not sure if that's for all assets they trade or only for equities and we know their servers are very overloaded.

                          With that being said I 100% agree that getting raw data is much better for scalping especially when speed is important.
                          ----


                          Regarding NT's pricing so far to me it's to high.
                          As I mentioned in another thread it's missing key order entry features that other day trading software has that many traders need.
                          Currently placing orders on NT 8 is like 1980's software to me.
                          Supposedly there's about 60,000 NT users but none of them know good day trading software?
                          It takes me a guy that's never used NT to wonder why smart programmable hot keys and hot buttons aren't available?
                          I don't mean merely buying at ask or bid with an offset.
                          I mean things like buying/selling with a % of your account.
                          Closing orders with a % of your position, etc.

                          Strange.

                          So essentially it's not even as good but yet costs a lot more.

                          I've used a broker that has typical hot key features like NT has and the platform is free.


                          It's hard for me to accept NT has 8 major iterations and has been around for years, costs $1,100 but it's order entry system is not very good.

                          It's also not really 4k or higher resolution compatible.
                          That's crazy, we've had 4k monitors for about 8 years, starting around 2012.
                          The NT developers couldn't see the writing on the wall for 8+ years?

                          There are currently 8k monitors for sale and NT can't even correctly support 4k monitors...

                          https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

                          Guaranteed higher resolution monitors are coming.
                          What if in the future manufactures stop selling lower resolution monitors?
                          NT >8 won't be usable.

                          Why haven't they made this compatible with 4k and higher resolutions?
                          Sure, overspend for a lifetime license for trading software that you can't use because it doesn't support any of the modern monitors, lol.

                          I used to be a software developer for some years and I can tell you if you don't keep up with technology you get left behind.
                          It's not a question of opinion.
                          If you aren't keeping up with technology standards you are failing and being left behind.


                          NT 8's order entry system is something from the 1980's and not having 4k and greater support is horrible and they're charging $1,100 for the software which is more than any other trading software platform I can currently think of...

                          So two majorly important things to traders NT 8 fails :
                          Order entry and screen real estate.

                          I don't know what the NT developers spend their time on and how often are new features being added?
                          Is NT 8 very buggy?
                          Does it have any reliability problems?

                          It's not the fault of the individual developers it's the fault of who's in charge telling them what to do.
                          I don't know who owns NT or who heads their software development division.


                          Here's a thread I started about the hot keys NT 8 SHOULD have but doesn't.

                          https://ninjatrader.com/support/foru...it-much-better

                          Thanks for your guy's thoughts.

                          Appreciate it.
                          Last edited by iTrade777; 05-23-2020, 04:12 PM.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Your execution thoughts are correct, but only for Limit Orders. I said that I was stopped out. My Stop Loss orders are always market orders. If a Stop Loss is hit, I want to be out. No messing around, smoking hopium that the price, if it dropped through, would come back and take a Stop Limit order. For one thing that would actually mean that the Limit order would be taken to exit when the market has resumed moving in the direction that I wanted to go.

                            So yes, if you have only Limit Orders, you may not get negative execution slippage, but your entry decisions will be delayed by the data that arrives in some snapshot and prints a price that is long now possibly invalid. Of course if one is swing trading or investing, snapshot data is just fine, because frankly, raw data is just unnecessary overkill when one is transacting at a leisurely pace anyway.

                            I agree that NT is expensive, but that is the model that they chose: "Give away the software for just about all development, and only charge when the punter decides that they actually want to trade." That cost, I am sure includes all the free development that everybody gets. Quite a few never even make the transition to actual trading, in which case they for free got to try their hand and allow themselves to be convinced that trading is not for them, all at no cost.

                            For me, it is a fair exchange, though it really sucks that one cannot transfer the software. That one really needs some rethinking. Charge a transfer fee of whatever, not just a "You bought it, you keep it forever, or else!"
                            Last edited by koganam; 05-23-2020, 05:42 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Itrade777, I believe you are in the wrong place. If you are looking for a platform, like E-trade Pro used to be years ago, where you have a bunch of DOS like hot keys which you use 50-100 times/day - this is not what NinjaTrader is and most likely never will be. This is a software with emphasis on ATM but which also has good charting and decent execution. One platform can not be all things to all traders. Just trying to save you some time, you saw support tell you that these changes can only be done outside of Internal Ninja Development.

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