No check withdrawals from Dorman. Hidden NinjaTrader fees

[Kediil]

I am rather miffed at what I have discovered in the last two days.

I played with the Demo for a while, and I did research into the platform, the brokerages for futures trading. Fees, costs, transfers. Everything.

Not ONE TIME did I ever encounter anything in relation to NinjaTrader that mentioned that a user had to pay a monthly subscription fee for live data. Your demo obviously has free live data. Your website specifically advertises free live data. First at the bottom of the page, then in the associated linked page. And nowhere is there an astrisk to denote that it is only temporarily free.

On the puchase options of the platform. It quite clearly has no notation that a subscription for live data is required, and one would think that this fee might be mentioned somewhere.

When I spoke to the rep who called me the day after I installed the demo, I specified that I was coming from TDAmeritrade's ThinkOrSwim platform, and asked quite specifically what differences there were. That obviously things would be charged differently between the platform. But the only difference I was given was in the direct fees associated with trades. A subscription to live data, when I expressed exactly what I was going to be using NT for, was never mentioned. In fact, when my account went live and I asked why I was not receiving a data feed, I was referred to the platform technical assistance and it was never mentioned that I needed a subscription for that service. Technical support immediately knew what the 'problem' was, and I was instructed on how to get the subscription.

By the way, for anyone new, you have to go to the website, login, go to Help, to Account Management, to Select Market Data. And there and only there is the only place that I found that now mentions that you have to have a subscription. So even though the platform GETS the data, it's just not going to show you any unless you pay for it. Luckily I am not a professional, and am only looking to do futures on NT, so I'm only paying $4 a month. But getting to this point was ridiculous and deliberately hidden.

To add the whipped cream on this sundae of stupid, I just received an email saying that my two week trial of live data was about to be over. Yet again, NOWHERE does it say that the demo only gets two weeks of live data before cutting you off. The email goes on in it's brief summation to let me know that I can continue receiving free data by funding an account. Not only free, but UNLIMITED, IN CAPS. I am going to ASSUME that this free UNLIMITED data is only for the duration of the demo, with a funded account. Again no mention of this limitation. That's kind of what the asterisk is for in cases like these NT!

----
And on a separate note. I spoke with my rep, and went to the forum, and did my bits of research on Phillips Capital and on Dorman Trading. I was informed by my rep that Pillips is in the testing phase of ACH transfers in and out of their NT accounts, and that it should be running in the next couple of months. Well, come to find out, PC has been 'planning' on adding ACH for well over a year, and when I asked them about it, they did confirm that they are testing, but that they have no time frame in mind for availability.

Luckily, I suppose, I found this out prior to funding the account. So of course I went with Dorman Trading, because while they are not, to my knowledge, planning ACH transfers, they do offer free withdrawals in check form.

Well. I contacted my rep to ask about the wait time on receiving a withdrawal check, and was sent to the brokerage support. Only here to be told that IN FACT, DT is not currently offering withdrawal checks AT ALL. Only wire transfers, which cost $30 a pop. So now I'm potentially faced with having to transfer my funds from DT to CP, assuming I can even do that in such a short time frame since many brokerages require a significant amount of time to pass before allowing withdrawal/transfer (I admit I have not yet pursued this course as I am still awaiting a second response from NT regarding when DT may offer their very clearly advertised free check withdrawals again).

----
My point in both of these gripes is that you guys have a lovely, simple platform for what I need, with decent fees, and reasonably priced for a lifetime license. You have tons of information, tutorials, how tos. Everything from setup to strategies. And it seriously irritates me that there was virtually no transparency regarding either of these facts. One, that live data requires a subscription fee to be paid. And Two, that PC has no time line on ACH and that DT is not currently offering checks.

There is no reason that one of the dozens of emails I have received from NT could not have mentioned one or both of these things. And there is no reason that the platform can not mention in demo mode that a subscription for live data is normally required.

----
I have no intention of moving on, as I truly like the platform, etc. But come on guys and girls. Don't surprise us NT newcomers with things like this.

**Edit: I would add that after a forum search for 'subscriptions', a NT person also stated recently that "The cheapest solution for live market data would be to open an account with a supported broker. For example, funding an account with NinjaTrader Brokerage will provide ongoing market data access through CQG/Continuum".

Well, I funded the NT Brokerage, and I'm using the Contiuum. So why do I have to also pay for a subscription?

[Fredg]

Hi,
Have to agree. I like the platform but they need to be more honest with their advertising & upfront about the fees.
The main page , free trading , free platform etc.
I was also charged over 25% when I withdrew a small amount ($300) through DT. $40 withdrawal fee plus $40 conversion fee(AUS $)?

[Kediil]

Exactly. I personally have no issue with the $4, but there's a lot of things in places that seem to say I should get, and should be getting, free live data with a funded account.

And I don't want to pay the $30 transfer. That's already steep enough, that they're charging you $40 is stupid. And why do they need to have a conversion fee at all? It's not like there's some guy in the back room physically counting your dollars in and out. It's a digital number on a server somewhere, and it's a simple calculation that is handled, no doubt, automatically.

Currency exchange fees from Aus to US for a bank is only about 10%, and that's round trip. There's plenty of exchange companies who do it for .5-3%. I can't say I'm privy to exactly how banks/brokerages trade money between them. But I'm pretty sure it only had to come one way, at most, to get to your brokerage, and I'm not sure if it even has to do that. And they're already charging you $40 just to get your money out, making you pay that much in fees on top of it is ridiculous. I could see a 3% fee, maybe even as high as 5%. Anything more is just greedy and gouging.

[NinjaTrader_RyanS]

Hello,

I would recommend directing these inquiries to brokeragesupport[at]ninjatrader[dot]com for clarification on fees and charges to your account.

Please let me know if I can assist with any platform questions.

[Kediil]

Hello,

I would recommend directing these inquiries to brokeragesupport[at]ninjatrader[dot]com for clarification on fees and charges to your account.

Please let me know if I can assist with any platform questions.

I HAVE spoken to the brokerage support. That's how I found out about these things. My issue is not with support, it's with transparency and given information to new customers. I have in most part been happy with the support I have received from my rep and the various supports I've spoken to.

However, your response does not make me feel heard in the least. I did not post this under of the help areas. I posted it under the Suggestions and Feedback. I am less than enthusiastic that your response indicates that you do not care and that I should go talk to some support person who has no input on the foremost information that NT provides both on their website and via their reps.

[NinjaTrader_RyanS]

Hello,

To clarify, the forum is used for platform related inquiries, and due to compliance we cannot address or advise on brokerage questions/issues. I will pass this along to our brokerage team for review, however I would also advise reaching out to them directly with this feedback if you have not already.

Please let me know if I can assist any further.

[Kediil]

Understood. But your forum does not state that it is for platform only. There is certainly no other area to publicly discuss issues, inquiries or suggestions. And while this forum may be dedicated to platform support, NT is the maker of the platform, and needs to be aware of the things going on with their product, their advertising, their reps, and their brokers.

[onemorecoffee]

Thanks for posting this thread, Kediil. I am super interested in NT8 and have been using the sim platform for a little while now, but before I fund an account I want to make sure it's the right account. It doesn't seem like either NT broker is very good. Thus far my conclusion is to lease the platform (which I really like) and go with a broker like Interactive Brokers. It just seems silly to have to pay for the platform when you want to use a broker that utilizes modern features.

I was told by an NT rep that a data feed is $4/mo, but I can't find any info on their website that lines up with that statement.

[Kediil]

Thus far my conclusion is to lease the platform (which I really like) and go with a broker like Interactive Brokers. It just seems silly to have to pay for the platform when you want to use a broker that utilizes modern features.

I tried IB's platform too, it was definitely not as easy as NT's. NT is most worth using for their simplicity and lower fees IMO.
I gave NT a call to confirm the IB option, as I was previously told only Phillips and Dorman can do futures on NT.

So apparently, IB CAN do futures as well, however, you'd be paying IB's commission rates to use them as your broker, even though you'd be using the NT platform. AND you'd still have to have a lease or lifetime version of NT to use IB on NT.

So you'd be paying either $245 quarterly / $720 annually / $999-1099 lifetime, regardless of who your broker is (IB, Phillips, Dorman)

NT's commission rates are: (each way)
ES (lease) - $2.39 ES(life) - $1.99
MES (lease) - $0.62 MES (life) - $0.46

IB's commission rates are: (each way)
ES - $2.10
MES - $1.50

@ NT's brokerage fees:
ES @ $1099, you'd be in the green on commissions after 276 roundtrip trades, assuming 3 single contracts a day = 92 days = 18 weeks = 4 months

MES @ $1099, in the green after 1194 roundtrip trades, assuming 3 single contract trades a day, = 298 days = 79 weeks = 20 months

(I'm pretty sure my math is right on that, but double check)

** Further on IB, I was told that while data is included with them, it is NOT tick by tick data, which is important if you're doing day trades/scalping type strategies. Also, using IB, they are currently NOT offering lower margins for futures trading. Margins per contract with NT are just $500 for ES, and $50 for MES. Whereas with IB, your margins are $13,200 for ES, and $1,320 for MES. That's a huge margin difference!

** And upon a general skim regarding using IB with NT, reviews are not good on the data feed from IB, apparently they throttle.

* Also, I have been told again, that Phillips is in the testing phase of their ACH transfers, and was also informed that they are testing with select live accounts, and was also told by the brokerage rep that they'd be surprised if it weren't implemented in the next month or two. Of course, he also wasn't aware that Phillips and Dorman had put a stop on all withdrawal checks. So I don't know.
--

If you aren't going to do your bids through NT, don't even lease it. Just use the free version and buy the data. If you ARE going to do your bids through NT, but you want to give it a good go and see if trading is for you, do the lease for a quarter. Three months should be a good standing point to see if you're going to continue. If you're doing your bids on NT and you're confident that trading is what you want to do long term, and you have the money to buy the program, buy it. You can split the $999 (you get $100 off if you buy in the first month) into four monthly payments.
But I wouldn't use NT, even with it's simplicity, if you're using IB through them for futures.

I was told by an NT rep that a data feed is $4/mo, but I can't find any info on their website that lines up with that statement.

Getting to that information is part of my issue on NT's transparency. Every other platform/broker I've gone to has pages devoted to that stuff and actual links to it.

I had to call about this issue myself because once I funded my account, which I assumed would give me free live data, at least for the duration of my trial (which it did not), the data would only update if I logged out and back in, but was no longer live.

For NT, you have to go to their main page (ninjatrader.com), then go to Help (top right), select Account Management from the dropdown, go to Select Market Data, enter all of your information (why they don't have a simple LOGIN for their site for me to access my overall account makes no sense to me at all), agree to their terms, AND ONLY THEN do you get to see the data information.
At the fore, they only show you their two bundles, so you have to choose Customize near the bottom. Which is where it will show you all the individual data options. Then you have to click on the 'Select' piece next to the listings in order to see the price.

If you're still playing with a digital account. They will only give you Free LIVE data for the first two weeks of your trial, which is bogus. Two weeks is no time for someone who is coming in new/relatively new. However, the website does say that NT is always free for simulated trading, which means simulated data. So don't quote me, but I take that to mean you can simulate data on the platform to continue play trading while you build up your skills. (It's on the platform under Connections, Simulated Data feed). They also have a 'Market Playback' function that's free-free, but I haven't played with that myself.


I have seen some people who use ToS for their data and do all their bids on NT. The difference being that ToS's data goes through a server before hitting their platform, so there is a slight delay vs NT who has direct data, and $4 a month just isn't that big a deal really. ( I just wish they were up front about it!)

[rontronimous]

Kediil They told me over a year ago that ACH was coming "Any week now", it's not for technical reasons, it's some sort of legal issue, I'm assuming since they're offshore?

[rontronimous]

onemorecoffee https://ninjatrader.com/MDE It's in this section. Most people get the package, it's like $21 a month or something, if you just want the financial indices its like $7

[Kediil]

Kediil They told me over a year ago that ACH was coming "Any week now", it's not for technical reasons, it's some sort of legal issue, I'm assuming since they're offshore?

I mentioned the exact same thing to my rep and two of the phone reps that I spoke to, and they still told me the same information. I just told them that's great, and when they actually implement it, I'll totally switch, but not before, because they have indeed been saying it was coming soon for a long freakin time.

onemorecoffee https://ninjatrader.com/MDE It's in this section. Most people get the package, it's like $21 a month or something, if you just want the financial indices its like $7

Yes, the issue is that they don't have a direct link to the information. There's no straight information on the pricing. You have to go through help, management, data to even get to that page. And then you MUST have a funded account with a NT user name in order to access the information and pricing. There's no reason they can't have a single page somewhere that directly states the exact fees associated with platform level/commission rates/data fees/etc. ~ AndhAnd oneon anian aside,o with information on just how long you receive the FREE live data that they purport to have. The free live data thing is mentioned all over, but they never say anywhere remotely obvious that it's only for a couple of weeks, or that you have to start paying for it. It's even mentioned in another post that if you fund an account, you'll get the live data for the duration of your trial (about 2 months), but that's also not true. As soon as I funded my account, I lost free data and had to subscribe