Connection and Offerings and Reliability Realities of NinjaTrader Brokers

[koganam]

Someone suggested to me in a private message that, and I won't give their name as it was private, but they said, "Since you lost so many trading opportunities with the ZenFire problems, you might want to consider opening a second account with another Broker using a different data feed. That way, unless there's a problem with an Exchange, you always have an account available." I thought this was really good advice and I had considered this but never got around to it.

So that's partly what this thread is about.

It is precisely why I have 3 accounts with different brokerages and price feeds. Not to mention that it also means that sometimes I can hedge by being short in one account and long in another, instead of exiting my position.

[koganam]

Hi,

the realtime AMP-CQG data feed works flawless. One of the fastest i have ever used. But AMPs customer support is one of the worst i ever experienced. Most of the time they do not answer to emails.

That seems to be the outstanding problem with AMP. I have yet to speak with anyone there who is polite. I do not know if that is the culture being deliberately fostered by the CEO, or if they just do not care because people keep opening accounts and they are operating on the P. T. Barnum philosophy. After all, there are a potential 300 million of them s....

The saving grace is that when the feed works it is so reliable that you may never have to speak to anyone. Yes, even my broker at AMP is extremely rude, both in speech and in email, so I do have at least the email evidence to show.

[koganam]

Why must we trade with mirus future and zenfire and plus Dorman as a clearing firm? When I remember rightly Dorman and RCG offers also ninja Trader+zenfire WITHOUT Mirus, but I am not sure at a moment where are the pros and cons to decide to trade direclty with Dorman without Mirus?
Chris

Pretty simple to find out. Call them, or otherwise get the vigorish rates for the FCM. Those rates are usually higher than if you go to the IB.

[koganam]

But Kinetick's order flow I guess still goes through Zen-Fire.

Here's is a quote from Ray yesterday.

Ray's note may not have been very clearly stated.

What is really meant is that "no matter your data feed, if your broker uses Zen-Fire for routing, then your order flow will still go through Zen-Fire, even as your data feed comes from another source." Which is pretty much what his second paragraph implies, as he states that: " ... I can say that NinjaTrader has integrated a CQG API and the connection provides both market data and trade routing services to NinjaTrader."

[koganam]

Given the numerous FCM's that offer CQG I find this astonishing. Are we being funneled to AMP or is it just that no other FCM has taken the time to use CQG's Integrated Client API to make the NT connection? It seems that the freedom of choice to use NT w/ CQG is really somewhat of an illusion becomes it comes with the no choice but to use AMP.

Is it possible to connect with Rithmic? Or is that "choice" not available.

This whole trading platform / introducing broker / data provider enterprise seems to rely on the heavy use of smoke and mirrors to conduct business.

CQG being referred to as an NT Technology Partner leads me to expect more.... isn't "flexibility" part of NT's business model?

Read up some more and you will see that NT is a direct partner of CQG, because CQG is the source of the Kinetick feed. At least, that is what the Press Releases seem to imply.

[glennts]

Read up some more and you will see that NT is a direct partner of CQG, because CQG is the source of the Kinetick feed. At least, that is what the Press Releases seem to imply.

Well then given this well established CQG relationship and the likely hood that there are no technological problems yet to be solved, doesn't this make it even harder to understand why we can only use CQG with NT if we accept AMP.

There's a large group of NT users looking for an alternative to Zen-Fire. CQG is an obvious choice. There are dozens of FCM's that offer CQG but only one that can be connected to with NT. Yet CQG is the source for Kinetick??? Is it not in NT's best interest to get as many FCM's as possible to offer CQG/NT connects?

Obviously I'm missing something.

[coolmoss]

Read up some more and you will see that NT is a direct partner of CQG, because CQG is the source of the Kinetick feed. At least, that is what the Press Releases seem to imply.

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. Kinetick data is actually from DTN. If you look at symbology the two are (or at least were when I last looked) the same.

[coolmoss]

I'm sort of guessing here, but I have a hunch that AMP has a significant investment getting the NT connection with CQG api up and running. They naturally would demand some form of exclusivity for making the investment. Again, just a hunch, but this would be typical of the way these sort of deals happen.

[glennts]

AMP has a significant investment getting the NT connection with CQG api up and running.

I have no idea.... the more I learn about this the less I understand.

CQG has this to say: "The CQG Client APIs allow customers to access real-time and historical data, utilize CQG analytics, and transmit orders from external applications. The following third-party application providers use the CQG API in providing their services: (among others) NinjaTrader, LLC is a well-established leading developer of high-performance trading software for the active trader.

My current thinking is that the CQG API already exists as we see evidenced by the AMP/NT relationship. My impression is that the CQG API is generic and broker agnostic. There is nothing about the CQG API itself that is unique to AMP. (if I'm wrong it is on that point) When you setup the account connection in NT you choose the data feed (CQG, Zen-Fire, etc) and that alone determines which API is then assigned to you. It is the broker provided user name / password that you then enter that is unique as it informs CQG which FCM to associate your trade activity with. For example my Mirus Zen-Fire username is my.email.address.com.rcg. It tells ZF that my account is at RCG because Zen-Fire doesn't care that my IB is Mirus. Just as CQG doesn't care that you use AMP as a broker only who is the FCM (which in this case is also AMP) If you change brokers but continue to use the same data feed all you do is enter the new user name and password and you are good to go because the API, being broker generic, remains the same. If this is correct (and I have no idea if it is) then the potential to connect to any IB or FCM that has a relationship with CQG already exists. All that is needed is an agreement to do so.

Is it possible that AMP has a contractual lock on NT's CQG API that prohibits allowing NT users access to other IBs and FCMs that offer CQG.

I hope not.

[bce111]

Thanks everyone for sharing what you know and for the discussion.

[NinjaTrader_JC]

Just wanted to clarify, it was mentioned before the Kinetick's Data was from CQG which is not the case, the Historical Data Servers that you connect to when connecting to CQG are going to be recorded directly from the real-time CQG data but Kinetick's Servers are separate from this.

[koganam]

Just wanted to clarify, it was mentioned before the Kinetick's Data was from CQG which is not the case, the Historical Data Servers that you connect to when connecting to CQG are going to be recorded directly from the real-time CQG data but Kinetick's Servers are separate from this.

I suppose then that that is what paragraph 2 in the Press Release means?

ref: http://news.cqg.com/continuum/press_...rader-llc.html

[koganam]

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. Kinetick data is actually from DTN. If you look at symbology the two are (or at least were when I last looked) the same.

Maybe. However, paragraph 2 of this reads somewhat different. Not being privy to the actual situation, my read could very well be a misinterpretation.

ref: http://news.cqg.com/continuum/press_...rader-llc.html

[glennts]

Maybe. However, paragraph 2 of this reads somewhat different. Not being privy to the actual situation, my read could very well be a misinterpretation.

Well.... first we have this from the above press release: "The integration of our award-winning trading platform to the Continuum global network is in line with our strategy to offer traders choice of FCM," said Raymond Deux

And then we have this from earlier in this thread: "CQG for NinjaTrader is only offered through AMP FCM and it's network of introducing brokers."....Raymond Deux

So it seems that I have the option to chose among any of these FCMs that are partnered with CQG....as long as it is AMP.

CQG / FCM PARTNERSHIPS

ABN AMRO, ADM, AMP, Advantage Futures, Aliom Financial Markets, ALOR, AMP Global Clearing, BCS, Bell Potter, Berkeley Futures Limited, BNP Paribas, BOC International, Bremer Landesbank, Broco, Citi, Crossland LLC, DBS Vickers Securities, DMG & Partners Securities, Dorman Trading, Dot Commodity, Inc., ED&F Man Capital Markets, GH Futures, Guotai Junan International, INTL FCStone, MBF Clearing Corp., Mizuho Securities, ITinvest, Jefferies Bache, Jitneytrade, J.P. Morgan, KGI, Knight Futures, The Kyte Group Limited, The Linn Group, Macquarie Futures, Marex Financial, Newedge, Nissan Century, NORD/LB, Otkritie Securities Limited, Otkritie Broker Ukraine, Philiip Futures Pioneer Futures, Rand Financial, Royal Bank of Canada, RBS Securities, Rosenthal Collins Group, RJO, SEB, Shepard International Inc., Straits Financial, UOB, Velocity Futures, VietinBank, Vision

As I said...the more I learn the less I understand.

[bce111]

Here's some more info on who is involved with who. Just to confuse everyone more. People were wondering. Not sure how current this is.

BIGTICK LLC

http://www.nfa.futures.org/basicnet/Details.aspx?entityid=s7%2fCor4GTms%3d

MIRUS FUTURES LLC

http://www.nfa.futures.org/BasicNet/Details.aspx?entityid=2xQqE8Do8Lo%3d

BIGWELLS TECHNOLOGY LLC

http://www.nfa.futures.org/BasicNet/Details.aspx?entityid=nmn67rSU8f4%3d

PATRICK JON SHAUGHNESSY the CEO of Zen Fire

http://www.nfa.futures.org/BasicNet/Details.aspx?entityid=nh88qZdWPGI%3d

ELIOT JAMES WICKERSHEIMER the Mirus CEO

http://www.nfa.futures.org/BasicNet/Details.aspx?entityid=ebmeeioaKXY%3d