Contract Rollover Options in Data Management

[Zeos6]

Hi,

Not sure if I am missing something, but when I go to Tools -> Database Management and under 'Update Instruments' tick Future Expiries, the check box will tick but it will not be retained, even if Update is pressed. In other words, I tick Future Expiries and close the dialog boxes. When I reopen the dialog boxes, the Future Expiries box is again unticked. So the option is not being saved. Is there something I am missing here? Please advise. Thank you.

[NinjaTrader_ChrisSch]

Hello Zeos6,

Thank you for your note.

This is expected behavior, it is not currently possible to save this option as a default in the platform.

Please let us know if further questions come up.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Zeos6.
I found the same and had the same reaction. to it, and the same response from Support.
I've found it to be similar all over the place.
For example, in Trade Performance it doesn't populate with the most recent trade at the top. It does everywhere else, Alerts etc, typically a user wants to see the most recent trade first etc.
And if you reverse the order, it isn't 'sticky'. Generate again and the oldest trade is at the top.
This sort of stuff is just diabolical.

It seems all Support staff have been on a training course - the stock reply weasel words are always 'it is expected behaviour'.
It may be 'expected' if you're a Ninjatrader developer, but not if you're a user with half an expectation of sensible behaviour.
Getting soooooooooo tired of this.
For 'Expected behaviour' read just plain dumb. However that is fast becoming my expectation

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Zeos6, to expand on what Chris said, it is correct to say that we do not expect the settings within the Database Management window to be retained, but we are always open to user's suggestions. Many of the great new features in NinjaTrader 8 started as client feature requests. I'll be submitting a feature request for the Database Management window to retain user changes. The tracking ID is SFT-2136.

Bruce, we've worked together many times and submitted many feature requests together. I hope you realize that we're all interested in making sure that NinjaTrader is working as we expect it to and that we're always open to suggestions on how to improve NinjaTrader. I do not recall if we worked together on the behavior you're reporting, but if a feature request wasn't submitted for that, it should have been. Could you provide me with the ticket number, link to forum post, or date you wrote in and discussed this with us?

[Zeos6]

Hi PatrickG,

Thanks Patrick. I appreciate your response to my inquiry. I have read your reply and here is my issue: You say,

...we do not expect the settings within the Database Management window to be retained...

If the option is not available for us to use, then why have it in the dialogue window at all? It just confuses.

I think that 'Future Expiries' is a feature every trader would want. It does, however, need to be expanded to also include custom rollover on volume change between the current contract and up coming front month ahead of the rollover date but most traders would appreciate not having to manually roll over their contracts.

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

You can use this option while the window is open, it just doesn't retain any changes made to the default settings.

The reason items can't be saved and only certain items are enabled by default are that these are the least invasive/can have the least effect on your platform. Typically you would only check more options if you're trying to combat a very specific symptom and it isn't recommended to do that without the guidance of a NinjaTrader Support Representative.

The built-in futures expiries are updated on-the-fly without any intervention necessary from the end user if everything is working correctly. We would only recommend enabling 'Future expiries' under 'Update instruments' then clicking 'Update' if something has gone wrong with that automatic process or for other specific symptoms.

Could you elaborate on what you're experiencing and why you have needed to update your futures expiries using this tool?

...expanded to also include custom rollover on volume change between the current contract and up coming front month ahead of the rollover date but most traders would appreciate not having to manually roll over their contracts.

I am not quite sure I understand what you mean here. If I manually change the roll date for a contract, I see that the 'Rollover' tool catches that. In this example, I changed the roll date of ES 12-18 to August 8th:

https://www.screencast.com/t/ccFicYf0ju71

If you want to roll earlier than the built in roll date, you'd need to edit the instrument's contracts to behave that way. Is this what you're referring to? If not, please elaborate.

In any case, I would not expect the 'Update instruments' portion of Database Management to have anything to do with rolling on a different date than default and would actually reverse the changes you've made in instruments.

In the example above where I changed the roll date for ES 12-18, I then checked 'Future expiries' and clicked Update. This erased my custom changes:

https://www.screencast.com/t/ZyAQG8k85

This is an example of when you would definitely not want to update instruments with 'Future expiries' enabled, and also demonstrates a reason why it's not checked by default.

[Zeos6]

Hi PatrickG,

Thank you for the detailed reply. I appreciate it.

You state,

The built-in futures expiries are updated on-the-fly without any intervention necessary from the end user if everything is working correctly. We would only recommend enabling 'Future expiries' under 'Update instruments' then clicking 'Update' if something has gone wrong with that automatic process or for other specific symptoms.

Could you elaborate on what you're experiencing and why you have needed to update your futures expiries using this tool?

Currently, at contract rollover, we are alerted to the fact that there will be a rollover of contracts. However, we are required to actually perform the rollover manually. It was my understanding that Future Expiries would allow the contracts to roll over automatically, without the need to to do it manually.

Second, you state,

If you want to roll earlier than the built in roll date, you'd need to edit the instrument's contracts to behave that way.

This exactly my point. We need to modify the instrument in the Instrument List, and then do the roll over manually. My point is that we ideally should have four options regarding contract rollover:

1. Manual rollover of contracts on the rollover date, as we currently have it.
2. Automatic rollover of contracts on the rollover date.
3. Manual rollover of contracts when the upcoming month contract volume traded exceeds the current front month contract volume, regardless of the actual roll over date, and
4. Automatic rollover of contracts when the upcoming month contract volume traded exceeds the current front month contract volume, regardless of the actual roll over date.

If the type of rollover could be specified for each contract, even better. For example, I may want ES to auto rollover but I may want CL to rollover when the volume of the current front month falls below that of the upcoming front month.

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Thanks for suggestions on how to make the rollover tool more advanced/automated. I've forwarded your suggestions to the Development Team, and I'll edit this post when I receive a tracking number(s).

[Zeos6]

Thanks PatrickG. Appreciate it.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Zeos6 and Patrick,

Zeos6 said:
"Currently, at contract rollover, we are alerted to the fact that there will be a rollover of contracts."
I'm not being pedantic here, it is because I think it is an important point/omission and needs to be part of the Feature Request - unless I'm missing something we're not 'alerted', we may find out if for some reason (e.g. we have it in our diary, our charts appear odd, we are using the Add-on tool developed to address this on our chart to flag it) we go into Database Management.... Otherwise, the rollover may have appeared there, but we're oblivious to it. I'd be delighted to have missed something.

Patrick, it will come as no surprise to you for me to ask you to add my votes when you get tracking number(s). There should be some longstanding already.

Kind regards,
Bruce

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Votes added to SFT-1285 and SFT-2686.

This add-on from our forums will indicate the next rollover date:

https://ninjatrader.com/support/forum/local_links.php?action=sendtofriend&catid=7&linkid=905

[Zeos6]

Hello brucerobinson,

You are correct in your statement. I spoke loosely when I stated we get alerted to a rollover dates. Sometimes, when I start up NT I do get a dialogue warning me of an impending rollover but, as you well stated, there is no general alert mechanism for rollovers. Thank you for the correction.

[brucerobinson]

Hello Zeos6, you're welcome.

I can't recall ever having seen a rollover notification appear pro-actively on start-up or any other time 'outside' of Database Management. I'd be interested to know if the occasional experience you describe can somehow be 'enabled' because that could be helpful.

Patrick, re: your post #4 & behaviour I reported - I'm sorry but I can't recall if it was ascribed a ticket nor date other than it was at the outset of my migration from 7 late last year and saw it to be an inexplicable, frustrating and retrograde change. Searching the Forum doesn't find it so expect it was email.
It's a pretty straightforward requirement and to reproduce. Just like an Alert I want the last Trade to appear at the top of the list so I can see it when I hit Generate. Not only is it not sticky opening and closing the Window, even if you re-order to last at top after clicking Generate, clicking Generate again cancels that. Not in 7, not a 'Feature', expected out of the box.

To my mind there is a difference between working as we expect it to, and users requesting Features they would like to see. The ability to Order tables, last at top and choices being 'sticky' is simply expected, not only in Ninja software, how it was in 7, and therefore a bug fix in 8. Yet it is not fixed.

One man's request for their own killer Feature on the other hand, may be another's bloatware.

Of all the issues we have worked together on, and with your colleagues, with the exception of rollover by volume I don't believe any of them have been requests for Features, they have been investigating and fixing things that I have found not to work as they should (intended - not as I think they should, how I want them to etc).

Hence when presented as 'Features' that I am requesting and that Ninja is accommodating/responding to it stimulates me to call it out as such. Not from my end of the telescope, it is me spending time finding things that don't work as they should then spending inordinate amounts of time describing and working with you to fix them. I continue to do so for the mutual interest motivations you describe. To present it as otherwise, is IMHO misrepresenting the situation to others that read..

Kind regards,

[Zeos6]

Helo brucerobinson,

You state,

I can't recall ever having seen a rollover notification appear pro-actively on start-up or any other time 'outside' of Database Management. I'd be interested to know if the occasional experience you describe can somehow be 'enabled' because that could be helpful.

I have received this notification but unfortunately I have not paid much attention to the conditions that led to it. I do recall receiving a warning but its exact nature and how it came about eludes me. You have me intrigued now. I will now pay close attention to it, and will try to document what I see, and how it came about. I will let you know when I have some information.

Cheers

[NinjaTrader_PatrickG]

Sometimes 'in product annoucements' will appear when you startup NinjaTrader that inform you of an upcoming rollover. These are typically pushed out when the quarterly contracts are nearing their rollover date.

Bruce, the feature request to save the order of grids as you desire is being tracked as SFT-624.