Drawn lines appear in different locations in different time frames

[cabum]

Chelsea, eDanny,


Now that's all understood. Probably it basically depends on the way NinjaTrader was designed to do calculations (i.e. data representation).
Just throwing my thought, is it theoretically possible to organize data in vector format? Like it's done in CorelDraw, or some mapping systems for example? In this case any point has it's XY value inside same coordinate system. In this case it will allow to do any modifications to the chart keeping everything in constant position relative to each other. In this case it would be possible even to drag the whole chart for example.
What I mean is shown in the video I made:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1i8R7sxSLG3MPxrM3Gn-6GJql-H_ds1Wx

As I said it's just a thought so no need to reply if don't feel so)

[NinjaTrader_ChelseaB]

Hello cabum,

How would this work on a 100 tick chart?

How many 100 tick bars are on the chart from 6:00 AM to 7:00 AM today?

How many 100 tick bars are on the chart from 6:00 AM to 7:00 AM last Thursday?

[HinduMVP]

Hi,


Noticed the following issue:
If I draw a line in a bigger time frame (say on a Daily chart) and then switch to a lower time frame (say 2 min, 5 min, tick etc.), it appears in completely different location. I think angle of this line remains the same.

What that may be?


Thanks!

On your chart, click Properties, then under the 'General' section Uncheck 'Equidistant bar spacing'. That should fix the issue.

[cabum]

Hello cabum,

Again, this is not something that is possible.
A fixed x and y point would not move when the chart bars are scrolled left or right.
The only way to have the line move with the chart bars when they are scrolled is to anchor the line to specific bars on the chart.
Then as the chart is adjusted the line is adjusted with the bars.
Without bars, the line has nothing to attach to. A line with stuck to the same x and y would not scroll and would not be in relation to the chart bars.

Hi Chelsea,


When I say fixed coordinates - it means they are fixed in this coordinate system. And when you scroll you do other modifications - you do it with the coordinate system itself (as I showed in my video), not charts or lines. My general question is I don't understand why you use charts to anchor any other objects... It should be just separate objects within same coordinate system.

It is impossible to know how many bars are between the start anchor bar and the first bar of the chart (bar 0). Simple trig. dictates you need to know how many bar slots between the anchors in order to draw the line in the correct place and angle.

This is only if you need something to anchor to. But if not?



For example:

1) 3 dots having x,y coordinates: (-10;5), (5;6), (99;200). Can you draw them on a (x;y) coordinate system? You can, we don't need any further information.

2) A line having starting and ending coordinates x;y as (-3;10) and (15;17). Can you put it on the same coordinate system without anchoring to the dots? Definitely you can.
3) In the example above the third point is located "above" the line.

If you remove the first two dots, then what happens to the coordinate system and third dot? Nothing, third point still remains above the line, the line remains in the same place (although we may "hide" certain part of it which goes beyond specified boundaries, i.e. specified range).


That's all. In our case (x,y) is (time;price). Any point of the charting screen can be specified with only these two coordinates. And no need in any dependencies.
No matter what timeframe we use, the program just calculates whether this or that point (i.e. a reading) belongs to this or that cloud (i.e. chart, line whatever) and displays it accordingly. So basically we just reshape all same points in this or that way.
If we have a line drawn through 365 days on a daily chart, it has that specific length based on (time;price) and all price points belonging to that period are shaped in the form of daily bars. If we say the program to reshape daily bars into 5min bars, but we say to show us only 3 days, then the program takes only points belonging to that specific period (it will be again (time;price) till (time;price)) and forms 5min candles out of THE SAME POINTS HAVING ALL SAME COORDINATES, and take those points of the line (HAVING ALL SAME COORDINATES) and just draws them inside specified period.
And again all those points have coordinates not depending on each other. We just reshape (or regroup) them in this or that form.

And when you scroll, you just tell the program which part of the coordinate system (with objects on it) to show to you, you don't move the objects itself. Let me put it this way: you have a big coordinate system that is several meters horizontally and vertically and look on it through window/frame which is only 1m x 1m. If you move that window/frame left/right/up/down (i.e. scrolling), the coordinate system with all the objects on it doesn't move or change, you just scrolling that window/frame and can view any part of that coordinate system.

But in Ninja you take those points and anchor the line (i.e. points of which line consists) to it. I.e. you anchor one point to another point. Probably for some reason.

Cheers

[NinjaTrader_ChelseaB]

Hello cabum,

I'm not quite sure that I understand.

The coordinate system of a chart is based on the price and time which is based on the chart bars.
Distance is arbitrary depending on how the bars are being displayed.

When you mention:
"When I say fixed coordinates - it means they are fixed in this coordinate system."

Can you further clarify what you mean by "in this coordinate system"?
What is "this coordinate system"?

When you mention:
"A line having starting and ending coordinates x;y as (-3;10) and (15;17). Can you put it on the same coordinate system without anchoring to the dots? Definitely you can."

This would not be possible to have fixed x and y values. The x and y values change when the scale and range of the time or price axis is changed. As you scroll the chart or change the range, NinjaTrader is calculating the new x and y positions based on the time and prices of the bars behind them. This is how drawing objects are able to be drawn over the bars and how the drawing objects scroll with the bars when the chart is scrolled.

[cabum]

Hello cabum,
I'm not quite sure that I understand.The coordinate system of a chart is based on the price and time which is based on the chart bars. Distance is arbitrary depending on how the bars are being displayed.

Hello Chelsea.


That is right, it's arbitrary, but again it remains relatively constant to each other. I.e. if you stretch the chart, that mean you stretched the whole coordinate system, thus stretching all other objects. So if the line is equal to 1, and chart is equal to 1, when you stretch the chart (coordinate system) to 2 (you double the distance), the line also becomes 2. And the line stays equal to the chart.

When you mention:
"When I say fixed coordinates - it means they are fixed in this coordinate system."
Can you further clarify what you mean by "in this coordinate system"?
What is "this coordinate system"?

This is NinjaTrader coordinate system:

When you mention:
"A line having starting and ending coordinates x;y as (-3;10) and (15;17). Can you put it on the same coordinate system without anchoring to the dots? Definitely you can."
This would not be possible to have fixed x and y values. The x and y values change when the scale and range of the time or price axis is changed..

We draw a line on our coordinate system:



Then we add price readings, i.e. point having certain time and price coordinates which are placed according to their coordinates on our coordinate system:



Then we need to reduce the time period of our window (coordinate system remains totally same):



And basically, we are watching now a more close view of the same coordinate system with the same points having the same coordinates:

[cabum]

And out of those points, which have fixed time and price coordinates (they are not changing in our system), we can form any kind of charts:





Why are you using chart itself as a reference? That's what I don't understand. You already have your coordinate system inside which any point can be referenced (having time and price coordinates). And you just specify which part of the whole picture you want to look at (i.e. you time period and time frame) and what figures to form out of the same points.
Let me stress it: the points are all same, remain in same locations because their time and price don't change.



Thanks!

[NinjaTrader_ChelseaB]

Hello cabum,

All action on the chart is relative to the bars on the chart. There is no way of knowing ahead of time how much time a bar will take for all bar types. The amount of time that a bar represents can also be different from bar to bar.

On a time based chart there are regular time intervals (such as the 60 minute chart you have provided a screenshot of). On a range, renko, line break, tick, volume, kagi, or any custom bar type this would not work.

Are you requesting that all non-time based bars be removed from NinjaTrader?

The alternative would be to no longer use the bars as a reference and instead have the coordinates be based on seconds (or even milliseconds to see movement and actions that happen within a second). This would mean each slot on the chart would represent 1 second (or millisecond) and the chart would be mostly empty space.

[cabum]

Hi Chelsea.

But why do you need to know the length?
And still don't understand why all action on the chart is relative to the bars.... No matter what bar types you use, you still have time and price for reference. For some configuration the line shall be drawn as a pixel, in another same line will be stretched through the whole screen. It uses only time and price, no bars at all.
If the line stretches for 3 days, but you have reconfigured time period to 1 day, the program just recalculates based on time what part of the whole line lays within this day (or any other specified time period). And the program does this based on time and how this time is represented, not bars...
It's like you just remove that part of the line, which stretches beyond the specified boundaries, that's it.

Thanks

[cabum]

Chelsea,

I got your point regarding any charts other than time based - the line would be "floating" for specific screen and time it covers.
And the same principle applies to time based charts as well as I understand?

Thanks!

[NinjaTrader_ChelseaB]

Hello cabum,

When you mention "And still don't understand why all action on the chart is relative to the bars.... No matter what bar types you use, you still have time and price for reference."

This is not correct.

Either the time slots at the bottom are regular intervals (like second or millisecond intervals) and completely ignore the bar information (meaning the chart will be mostly empty space) or we can reduce the empty space by making everything relative to the bar which then creates the time slots.

With regular second or millisecond intervals we can reference points where there are no bars on the chart. We can calculate distance without needing any bars as the chart is a pure time and price grid and the bars paint over that at the exact close time and price of the bar. (This also means no equidistant bar spacing and if there is no price action for a time period that part of the chart will be a big blank area)

If the bars are the reference and create the time slots (as they are in NinjaTrader) then we can remove all of the empty space and have 1 bar per slot. If there are no bars in an area of the chart then we do not have a time and price for reference. No bars no time and price no anchor for a drawing object.

[cabum]

Hello cabum,

When you mention "And still don't understand why all action on the chart is relative to the bars.... No matter what bar types you use, you still have time and price for reference."

This is not correct.

Either the time slots at the bottom are regular intervals (like second or millisecond intervals) and completely ignore the bar information (meaning the chart will be mostly empty space) or we can reduce the empty space by making everything relative to the bar which then creates the time slots.

With regular second or millisecond intervals we can reference points where there are no bars on the chart. We can calculate distance without needing any bars as the chart is a pure time and price grid and the bars paint over that at the exact close time and price of the bar. (This also means no equidistant bar spacing and if there is no price action for a time period that part of the chart will be a big blank area)

If the bars are the reference and create the time slots (as they are in NinjaTrader) then we can remove all of the empty space and have 1 bar per slot. If there are no bars in an area of the chart then we do not have a time and price for reference. No bars no time and price no anchor for a drawing object.

Hello Chelsea,
I understood your point. And you apply the same logic to time based charts as for not fixed time intervals as I understand?
It would be great if at least for time-based charts we could draw lines based only on time-price characteristics. For example for me it's a big limitation that I can't transfer (copy/paste) daily trend line for example on a 5 min chart (my working chart has 3 days time period, so any line which was drawn on a larger time period will be shown completely different).


BTW how can I change month names on a time axis from Russian into English? Everything else is in English.


Thanks!

[NinjaTrader_ChelseaB]

Hello cabum,

The chart works with all bar types the same.

You can copy a drawing object to a chart with a different interval. The angle and anchors will be relative to bars on the chart for that bar type.

Currency and date information can come from your regional settings. Do you have the regional settings of Windows set to Russian?

What is the Tools > Options > General > Language set to in NinjaTrader?

[cabum]

Hello cabum,

The chart works with all bar types the same.

You can copy a drawing object to a chart with a different interval. The angle and anchors will be relative to bars on the chart for that bar type.

Currency and date information can come from your regional settings. Do you have the regional settings of Windows set to Russian?

What is the Tools > Options > General > Language set to in NinjaTrader?

Hi Chelsea,


I have understood finally what the program does!!


It takes starting and ending prices of the line and transfers the line to have the same starting and ending prices, BUT only the selected time period. So now I understand why exactly lines are changing their position compared to charts.



See below:


We draw a line on a 6 days period chart. Note the starting and ending prices.




Then reduce the interval to 3 days period. The starting and ending prices remain same, but only for 3 days period now. The line doesn't extend to the left - it's cut at the period beginning.




Then reduce the interval to 1 day period. The starting and ending prices remain same, but only for 1 day period now. The line doesn't extend to the left - it's cut at the period beginning.



But Date shown of starting and ending points remain same on all time periods! That is what confused me. So basically the Date of the line was also changing.



Below are the resulting lines:



So from my example above: can I have 6 days line appear on my 1 day chart?
How can I see a bigger trend lines on a smaller time periods charts?


That is my main question since I need to see the lines from bigger time period charts on my smaller period charts. If I can't do that, that's a big issue for me since I can't see bigger picture on small time intervals which I trade. Any chance your team could incorporate this feature at some point for time based charts?


Thanks!

[NinjaTrader_ChelseaB]

Hello cabum,

You can absolutely draw objects and see them on different time frames.

However, you would need to make sure that the anchors are within the time and dates of the first and last bars on both the larger and smaller time frames. (Other wise like in your demonstration with a video if they are drawn at the end of the day and you change the bar type to an intra-day bar and the last bar isn't at the end of the day, one (or more) of the drawing object's anchors will be hanging in the air.)

This is discussed in post #10